saison bernice dregs

[inda_bebe]

Loved what SARA has been putting out. On a bottle of saison bernice, they say to harvest the dregs and use it to make your own. Mad fermentationis blog says that it contains only Brett and no bugs. So I'm guessing it's okay to use a stirplate to step it up.

How would you guys use it? Secondary?

I was gonna go with pilsner, rye and acid malt. Pitch saison yeast in primary and saison bernice in secondary. Will this get me that tart finish or would I need to add lacto? I reached out to them but haven't heard anything back from them

 

[sweetcell]

How would you guys use it? Secondary?

my reading of http://rusticales.com/rustic-ale/saison-bernice/ is that the brett is added in secondary, so if you want something similar to the original beer you should do the same.

Will this get me that tart finish or would I need to add lacto? I reached out to them but haven't heard anything back from them

you should ask the brewers if they do anything specific to get the tang in Bernice.

if you want something that is more tart or more sour than the Bernice, you should add lacto (preferably brevis).

 

[inda_bebe]

my reading of http://rusticales.com/rustic-ale/saison-bernice/

if you want something that is more tart or more sour than the Bernice, you should add lacto (preferably brevis).

Should I add at primary or secondary

 

[sweetcell]

brevis has worked well in secondary for me, but lots of folks swear by adding it in primary. i've never done it in primary so i can't compare. if you're looking for just a little lactic tartness, i'd go with secondary.

 

[SantaCruzMtnMan]

I live near SARA and drink their delicious brews regularly. Saison Bernice definitely has some lacto in it, and they ferment this beer in stainless steel fermenters, so there's no oak funk to speak of. I'm planning to "clone" this but want to make sure I get the tartness out of it.

I currently have two bottles of Bernice that I'm saving for an 8-gallon batch I plan to brew once temperatures rise a little (thinking of using WY 3724 for primary fermentation). I'm new to funky and sour beers (making them, that is) and was either going to:

(1) Add the dregs from both bottles to secondary and wait a few months before bottling; or
(2) Add dregs to 3724 starter and toss it all in for the duration (no transferring to secondary, but bulk aging until it tastes right).

Any recommendations?

Cheers.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The link from @sweetcell didn't have any info ..??

I found this: http://draftmag.com/ratebeer-best-sante-adairius-saison-bernice/
Based on what the owner says about it I'd use a saison yeast plus Brett both in separate starters pitched into primary. The saison yeast might not even be necessary because it is probably in the dregs (and/or a bottling yeast, who knows). Because of this, you probably can't reproduce it exactly, but maybe close.
It'd be a good idea to try to get more info about what live microbes are in the bottle from the brewery.
Brett in secondary would require extended aging (6-9 months or more) to reach final gravity.

I don't get the impression they used Lacto but I haven't had the beer, so I can't make a recommendation for that.

 

[Biobrewer]

I have isolated some fantastic Brett out of the Bernice, though I have never used the dregs as a whole, so not sure what kind of character they would give when propped up. The isolates I have (none of which are available through The Yeast Bay as either a wild catalog or beta product, this was more for personal use) are unbelievably tropical/juicy and attenuate well. I'm sure you'll have some luck if you use just the Dregs though.

 

[SantaCruzMtnMan]

Thanks RPh Guy! They don't use a separate bottling yeast and encourage homebrewers to repitch their bottle dregs. Also, it is a sour (not too sour) saison, so it has lacto and/or pedio for sure. They don't know exactly which bugs are in their house yeast culture, though, but Tim (cofounder) says he used dregs from Hill Farmstead early on.

My current plan (after cross posting my query) is to make a starter of the saison yeast (WY3724) and pitch it along with the dregs of 2 bottles of Bernice. Since 3724 tends to stall and always take a while (4-7 weeks), there should be plenty of sugar for the other bugs to munch on.

 

[SantaCruzMtnMan]

I have isolated some fantastic Brett out of the Bernice, though I have never used the dregs as a whole, so not sure what kind of character they would give when propped up. The isolates I have (none of which are available through The Yeast Bay as either a wild catalog or beta product, this was more for personal use) are unbelievably tropical/juicy and attenuate well. I'm sure you'll have some luck if you use just the Dregs though.

Nice to hear -- I think I'll just dump the dregs (2 Bernice bottles-worth) into the 8 gallons of wort I plan to make once the temperatures rise a bit.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have isolated some fantastic Brett out of the Bernice, though I have never used the dregs as a whole, so not sure what kind of character they would give when propped up.

Do you think a home brewer could make a starter out of maltodextrin to effectively isolate Brett? Just brainstorming.

 

[Biobrewer]

Do you think a home brewer could make a starter out of maltodextrin to effectively isolate Brett? Just brainstorming.

In theory you could do this, though the term would be "enrichment" not "isolation" as you would be selecting for anything that could metabolize your carbon source, and against anything that cannot, which could be a mix of strains. One issue would be that you are not isolating a pure culture from a single cell, which means you could still see drift in the culture over time. Another issue is that there are Sacch strains that can metabolize MD, and a lot of them happen to be saison-style strains, so odds are there may be one (or more) in SARA SB.

When looking to isolate Brett, I typically enrich the source material in media (could be YPD or wort) containing 10 PPM cycloheximide and then streak onto YPD + cycloheximide plates to start the colony selection. I have contemplated selling these plates through my site, I make them all the time and I think homebrewers could benefit from easier access to selective media for fun projects like this.

 

[RPh_Guy]

In theory you could do this, though the term would be "enrichment" not "isolation" as you would be selecting for anything that could metabolize your carbon source, and against anything that cannot, which could be a mix of strains. One issue would be that you are not isolating a pure culture from a single cell, which means you could still see drift in the culture over time. Another issue is that there are Sacch strains that can metabolize MD, and a lot of them happen to be saison-style strains, so odds are there may be one (or more) in SARA SB.

When looking to isolate Brett, I typically enrich the source material in media (could be YPD or wort) containing 10 PPM cycloheximide and then streak onto YPD + cycloheximide plates to start the colony selection. I have contemplated selling these plates through my site, I make them all the time and I think homebrewers could benefit from easier access to selective media for fun projects like this.

Thanks for the info!
I might try a MD starter from a bottle of 3 Floyds Deesko I found (if it tastes good). Let's turn this theory into reality!

I understand I'd be assuming Brett is the only thing in the bottle capable of metabolizing the MD, so it's not isolation in a strict sense. I think I could probably taste if I had a saison Sacc strain.
I don't think I'd be overly concerned with drift since this isn't for commercial use. Wouldn't you speculate that the Brett population in dregs (from a beer pitched with a particular Brett culture, not spontaneous) should have pretty limited genetic variability... thus reducing the potential for drift? Or am I way off base?

I am very interested in wrangling some nice Brett strains at some point. The procedure and cost of making plates seems a little intimidating at first glance even though I have some very limited experience isolating cultures in a lab.