Saflager 34/70 Lingering Sulfur Issue

[Woodland_Sven]

After reading the Brülosophy experiment comparing S05 to 34/70, I decided to give 34/70 a shot. Recipe is an easy drinking smash beer of about 20 ibus, 5.5% abv, lightly hopped with mosaic. Fermented in the basement at room temp (about 65F ambient). I never rehydrate the yeast and it’s never caused problems. It’s a standard recipe I’ve made successfully with no issues using S05. Also of note: due to the quarantine, I had to use my tap water of unknown composition with a small gypsum addition rather than starting with distilled or RO water and building from it as I normally would.

The beer is now 2.5 weeks old. When I took my first gravity reading at one week, it had reached terminal gravity but smelled and tasted horribly sulfurous, to the point that I struggled to be able to taste malt or hops–just sulfur and alcohol. I searched the forum and internet at large for many iterations of “34/70 sulfur” and “34/70 off flavor”. I’ve read that’s common for lager yeasts and that it normally cleans itself up given enough time, so I wasn’t concerned.

Today is 2.5 weeks, so I did another sampling. Still just a sulfur bomb in the nose and the mouth, and I can’t say whether it’s gotten better or stayed the same. Still can’t taste malt or hops or the clean easy drinking quality that I go for when I make this recipe. Searching the internet again, I didn’t find any accounts of persistent sulfury grossness.

So my question is: what do you think’s going on to cause this persistent off flavor? Is this typical behavior for 34/70? Am I just being too impatient? Could it be because of tap water? Stressed yeast?

Thanks for any input. I can tell you it’ll be a long time before I reach for 34/70 over 05 again.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The "sulfur" aroma is hydrogen sulfide.

It's difficult to say what exactly might have gone wrong in this case, but generally speaking excessive sulfide is caused by an unhealthy fermentation and/or lack of nutrients.

It likely wasn't anything to do with your water.

Here's a very comprehensive article about this off flavor, by yours truly:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sulfide

Let me know if something doesn't make sense. I'm happy to answer questions.

 

[jdauria]

Most lager yeasts will throw off some sulfur, some more than others. 34/70 is usually not that bad. But fermenting warm with a lager year would probably cause the sulfur aroma to be enhanced. There are some lager strains that work well at warm temps and some don't. You best bet is to let it ride for a month or so and see if it fades. As you read it can fade "over time" but 2.5 weeks is not what that means, more like 1-2 months.

When I brew lagers, they sometimes smell like someone threw a stink bomb in the fridge, but the process of lagering the beer for a month or more usually reduces that aroma.

Using unknown water may not have helped either. You should be able to get your city or town's water report on their website. Look for Water department or Public Works. It is possible that your water contains high concentrate of sulfate and then you added more with using gypsum (calcium sulfate). According to this link...high sulfates in water can lead to rotten egg smell in beer.. https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/6KDwm8vWwW/

 

[Woodland_Sven]

Thanks to both of you for your very knowledgeable responses. I’ll take a look at the resources you’ve shared and adjust my practices accordingly. In the meantime I’ll leave this thing in the basement for a few more months and hope for a miracle.

As for my tap water, the local water quality report didn’t list the minerals or other characteristics that are relevant to brewers. I have ordered a water testing kit that I’ll send off to a lab for analysis (Ward Labs, I believe), so I’ll have a better idea within a month or so.

 

[moreb33rplz]

2.5 weeks in on a beer that needs 6-8 weeks. I wouldn't believe everything you read in the warm lager thread.

 

[jdauria]

I'm actually in same boat myself water wise, usually use distilled. Did a Ward Labs test and all my mineral numbers are good except sodium at 99 PPM and Chloride at 165 ppm. Sodium is too high for pretty much everything and with that chloride, brewing anything hoppy is out of the question unless I put a ton of gypsum in.

Have been getting it done, by getting a few gallons of distilled at a time leading up to brew day and then brewing with 67% distilled and 33% tap to cut those numbers. I just signed up with a water delivery company to get 5 gallon jugs of RO water delivered to the house so I don't have to keep waiting in line at a store to get water.

 

[Woodland_Sven]

I'm actually in same boat myself water wise, usually use distilled. Did a Ward Labs test and all my mineral numbers are good except sodium at 99 PPM and Chloride at 165 ppm. Sodium is too high for pretty much everything and with that chloride, brewing anything hoppy is out of the question unless I put a ton of gypsum in.

Have been getting it done, by getting a few gallons of distilled at a time leading up to brew day and then brewing with 67% distilled and 33% tap to cut those numbers. I just signed up with a water delivery company to get 5 gallon jugs of RO water delivered to the house so I don't have to keep waiting in line at a store to get water.

That sounds like a great solution. They sell water at my LHBS, so I’ll give that a try, but if I’m not sold on it or it’s too inconvenient I’ll definitely look into a water delivery service.

As a side note, it’s been really interesting to observe that my dad hasn’t picked up the off flavor when I’ve shared samples with him, even after I pointed it out. I don’t know how it’s possible, but he insists it “just tastes like beer.” To me it’s clear as day and so vile. Not criticizing him, just amazing to see the difference between palates.

 

[Woodland_Sven]

2.5 weeks in on a beer that needs 6-8 weeks. I wouldn't believe everything you read in the warm lager thread.

Hope you’re right and that it clears up in a month or two. In the meantime... US05 for me.

 

[Steveruch]

I've used w34/70 a lot and have never had any sulfur smell.

 

[SanPancho]

Did you check the date on your yeast pouch? Excessively old or warm storage can decrease viability a lot. Not necessarily the cause, but something to think about.

 

[dmtaylor]

It's gonna take patience and time to do it right.

 

[ebbelwoi]

It's gonna take patience and time to do it right.

Is that a George Harrison quote?

 

[RPh_Guy]

It is possible that your water contains high concentrate of sulfate and then you added more with using gypsum (calcium sulfate). According to this link...high sulfates in water can lead to rotten egg smell in beer.. https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/6KDwm8vWwW/

This generally isn't true. Beer & Brewing is a little out of touch...
For example in the first book they cite (Handbook of Brewing 2nd ed by Priest and Stewart, 2006), the authors say "Excessive concentrations of hydrogen sulfide arise from deficiencies in wort composition, poorly controlled fermentations, and stressed yeast." There's no mention of sulfate levels at all.
The other books they cite are over 60 years old.

There's no modern evidence to indicate that high sulfate levels increase the formation of excessive sulfide. In fact, one source in my article demonstrated little/no sulfide formation in fermentations with 480 and 4800ppm sulfate (5 and 50mM). (Jiranek 1992)

 

[Woodland_Sven]

So I got the results of my tap water test back and it’s neutral, with no big outliers. So water chemistry shouldn’t have been the issue. I took another sample two days ago: off flavor continues to gradually lessen but is still very prominent. Still unable to see past it to detect much in the way of malt or hop flavor.

 

[stickyfinger]

i’ve used 34/70 in the mid-60s with no rehydration many times in 2 weeks any sulfur is gone. maybe your yeast pitch was lower than you thought?

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

IME this strain takes a while to clean up sulfur. I haven't used it in a while but when I was using it regularly, I let it sit at least 3 weeks in primary before transferring to secondary for at least another 3 weeks. 2.5 weeks is too young, let it condition longer. If you use 34/70, try increasing pitch rate, this may also reduce sulfur production.

 

[stickyfinger]

that may be true at lower temps, but at 65F it should be good to keg in 2 weeks.

IME this strain takes a while to clean up sulfur. I haven't used it in a while but when I was using it regularly, I let it sit at least 3 weeks in primary before transferring to secondary for at least another 3 weeks. 2.5 weeks is too young, let it condition longer. If you use 34/70, try increasing pitch rate, this may also reduce sulfur production.

 

[doogie]

As a side note, it’s been really interesting to observe that my dad hasn’t picked up the off flavor when I’ve shared samples with him, even after I pointed it out. I don’t know how it’s possible, but he insists it “just tastes like beer.” To me it’s clear as day and so vile. Not criticizing him, just amazing to see the difference between palates.

Here's hoping that he doesn't have the covid-19 and lost his sense of smell and taste.

 

[Woodland_Sven]

Okay, I wanted to come back and update this thread while it was on my mind. After I posted, the beer got less and less sulfury and has now cleared up entirely. I’ve got it carbonating in the keg now.

Another thing that became clear as the sulfur dissipated was that it was entirely too bitter for what I’d intended. Two lessons learned there:

1.The chiller really must be used (I had let it cool overnight because it turned out my hose had a major leak I was unaware of). This led to increased hop bitterness which is really unbalanced in this beer, since it was already on the high end of the style guidelines for ibu.

2. Just because a recipe maker says you hit your numbers and SRM doesn’t mean it’s to style! In this case I added lots of late addition hops which blurred the line between blonde and pale ale. This beer certainly ended up more in the pale ale category

It’s only half carbonated, but I’d say it turned out to be drinkable though not outstanding due to the excess bitterness. I’ve since made another batch in which I’ve avoided every mistake I made in this batch. Live and learn.