S-04 and sourness?

[SwampassJ]

Just pitched this yeast Saturday night at 59 and let it rise to 64. Krausen is already falling back in so I pulled a sample earlier. Still only at ~63 apparent attenuation so I don't think it's quite done yet. Gave it a little swirl and moved the temperature up to 66 to encourage it to not do to me what WLP002 and WLP005 did to me.

The sample I pulled was tart and acidic from all of the yeast in suspension and still fermenting. If I had to peg it to another tart fermenting yeast it tasted like the starter liquid of WLP029 immediately after coming off the stir plate but with more bright fruity flavor. I'll pull another sample in a week or two when it gets transferred for the dry hopping. I'm hoping it doesn't clean up too much and I can keep the esters around. Last two batches with 002/1968 had good malt flavor but cleaned up a big chunk of the fruitiness.

 

[amandabab]

Yes it will. The last beer I made with it did a fine job after being in the primary for 3 weeks. You are entering the realm of the secondary vs no secondary debate. Lots of people on this forum and people like Jamil and Palmer recommend you leave it in the primary longer unless you're dry hopping or doing extended aging. Maybe I haven't used s-04 enough, but I think you should leave that beer alone for 3-4 weeks and watch the funkiness fall out of that beer.

I'm aware of the church of Palmer
But I'm talking about a specific strain of yeast I've used extensively for over a decade and and how to avoid the sourness (that I never get)so many people get after using the strain.

 

[afr0byte]

Yes it will. The last beer I made with it did a fine job after being in the primary for 3 weeks. You are entering the realm of the secondary vs no secondary debate. Lots of people on this forum and people like Jamil and Palmer recommend you leave it in the primary longer unless you're dry hopping or doing extended aging. Maybe I haven't used s-04 enough, but I think you should leave that beer alone for 3-4 weeks and watch the funkiness fall out of that beer.

Secondary will allow the funkiness to fall out just fine too, but certainly there's no good reason to remove the beer from the yeast cake before the FG is reached. I don't know why amandabab was recommending that.

 

[afr0byte]

I'm aware of the church of Palmer
But I'm talking about a specific strain of yeast I've used extensively for over a decade and and how to avoid the sourness (that I never get)so many people get after using the strain.

Well, he said he doesn't get it if he leaves it in the primary for 3-4 weeks, so apparently your way isn't the only way.

 

[kenais]

I'm drinking a Citra IPA that was fermented with S-04 right now, the keg is almost gone and I haven't noticed any sourness. I mashed this one pretty low and the yeast took it down to 1.010. 1 week in the primary, 2 weeks in the secondary and 2 weeks in the keg carbing. I can't offer any insight other than this yeast worked well for me.

I do prefer the cleaner taste of S-05 though and that is what I typically brew all my IPA/APA with. Both 05 and 04 seem be done in about 4 days, they go pretty crazy. I wouldn't imagine it makes a difference but I rehydrate them while I'm mashing.

 

[TimTrone]

I'm not sure where you got this idea. Sure, it's highly flocculant, so it will flocculate pretty readily. However, it's not true that you have to get it off the yeast and do a long secondary. As long as you pitch enough yeast and prevent any drastic drops in temperature, you should be able to easily get a clean beer from it, without a secondary after a week.

+1. I use 04 for any lower gravity English ale I brew. I always give it 3 weeks in primary, then bottle or keg. No need for a secondary at all if the yeast is treated with care.

 

[thetragichero]

tasted my oatmeal stout after 2 weeks in the bottle (young, i know, but i was trying to get an idea of progress)
sour smell has greatly reduced, and this should be a good beer once it's fully conditioned

 

[hector]

I think the only option I have now is using the Secondary phase after the Primary .

I already brewed 3 Batches using S-04 and always let the Beer sit in the Primary for 3-4 Weeks before bottling .

I did it in different conditions , but all of them ended up with the same damn aftertaste .

Besides , I'm worried about the F.G.

Do you think it's a good Idea to repitch if it gets stuck again at about 1.020 ?!

By my last Batch , I roused the yeast cake 2 times per day for 5 days after it got stuck , but it didn't work .

So I think by arousing the S-04 cake , you just take dead yeast cells up into the solution .

Hector

 

[Cysis]

I used S-04 in a Newcastle clone...I've been looking for this fruity tartness that no other beer seems to have...i just opened a 7day old bottle to check carbonation, and I can't believe it really tastes like Newcastle...I'm still new to Homebrew, but I found this yeast to be perfect for what I wanted...I don't think it's for everything, but I think it makes a great beer...

 

[afr0byte]

+1. I use 04 for any lower gravity English ale I brew. I always give it 3 weeks in primary, then bottle or keg. No need for a secondary at all if the yeast is treated with care.

Well, I personally don't agree with the "leave it at least 3 weeks in the primary" (You may not be advocate that.) either. I just don't agree with amandabab that you have to "get if of the yeast after a week, even if it's not at FG." I usually ended up having my beers in the primary (even with S-04) for 10-14 days.

 

[afr0byte]

I think the only option I have now is using the Secondary phase after the Primary .

I already brewed 3 Batches using S-04 and always let the Beer sit in the Primary for 3-4 Weeks before bottling .

I did it in different conditions , but all of them ended up with the same damn aftertaste .

Besides , I'm worried about the F.G.

Do you think it's a good Idea to repitch if it gets stuck again at about 1.020 ?!

By my last Batch , I aroused the yeast cake 2 times per day for 5 days after it got stuck , but it didn't work .

So I think by arousing the S-04 cake , you just take dead yeast cells up into the solution .

Hector

First: It's rousing, not arousing....arousing is decidedly more sexual. Second, having to repitch isn't normal. If you're aerating properly (or preferably, oxygenating with pure O2), and you pitch enough yeast (1 packet should be enough for most beers up to about 1.060), you shouldn't get stuck at 1.020. This does, however, assume that you're not starting at 1.080 and expecting 1.010, especially with extract. Also, your particular extract could just be not very fermentable. You may need to substitute some table sugar.

EDIT: You should also rehydrate if you're not doing so.

 

[hector]

I used S-04 in a Newcastle clone...I've been looking for this fruity tartness that no other beer seems to have...i just opened a 7day old bottle to check carbonation, and I can't believe it really tastes like Newcastle...

I'd like to say that what I mentioned here as the aftertaste is completely different . I didn't mean the fruity tartness .

My Beer was totally sour . What you taste by my Beer is only sourness and nothing else .

Would you please give me more details about your "Newcastle Clone" .

Fermentation Temperature ?

Only Primary or also Secondary ?

For how long did you keep it before bottling ?

Hector

 

[afr0byte]

I'd like to say that what I mentioned here as the aftertaste is completely different . I didn't mean the fruity tartness .

My Beer was totally sour . What you taste by my Beer is only sourness and nothing else .

Would you please give me more details about your "Newcastle Clone" .

Fermentation Temperature ?

Only Primary or also Secondary ?

For how long did you keep it before bottling ?

Hector

If your beer is "totally sour" that sounds like a lacto infection...or, possibly, a lot of yeast still in suspension

 

[Cysis]

I guess mine wasn't that sour...that doesn't sound good at all...

Rehydrated yeast 15mins@90°
Cooled then pitched @ 72°
Steeped grains for 40mins at 155°
6lb DME - briess light I think
OG - 1.050 @ 72°
FG - 1.012 at time of transfer to secondary
FG - 1.012 at time of bottling
Carbonating right now 8days in 49 bottles

Primary was 3 weeks
Secondary was 3 weeks

Primary temp first 3 days was in my 69° kitchen
- then into a 65° closet
- we got a hot spell in Michigan so it spent 3days in the closet @ 75°
-next 2 weeks in 63° basement

Secondary was in basement @ 63° for 3wks

Temps during primary was all over the scale...I don't think I could repeat it exactly the same in a hundred tries, but the beer is good so far...

 

[hector]

having to repitch isn't normal. If you're aerating properly (or preferably, oxygenating with pure O2), and you pitch enough yeast (1 packet should be enough for most beers up to about 1.060), you shouldn't get stuck at 1.020....

Thanks for reminding my mistake . It's corrected now .

As I said before , I am an Extract brewer ( at least I try to be ) .

My previous Batches were all small Batches . So , I didn't need to use the whole sachet , as it would lead to

other problems due to "Over-pitching" .

I always follow the Instruction given by "Fermentis" to rehydrate this strain .

The O.G. was around 1.050 by the previous batches and I always aerate well before pitching . The Lag time is always 6-7 Hours .

I follow the "Late addition Method" . I add 30% of the DME at the beginning of the Boil and the remaining 70% is added

after 45 minutes to be boiled for the last 15 minutes .

I'm also thinking about adding the remaining 70% at Flame-out to prevent from being caramelized .

Hector

 

[hector]

If your beer is "totally sour" that sounds like a lacto infection...or, possibly, a lot of yeast still in suspension

It's been discussed long in another Thread and the Conclusion was that I'm far away from the Infection , as I described my

sanitizing process and the whole brew day in details .

The Beer is crystal clear in bottles before chilling and there is no ring or any white surface .

Hector

 

[CidCitrus]

I've had a sourness to varying degrees in every brew I've done so far (all extract/partial boils). I think maybe one of them used s-04. The sourness tends to become more pronounced the longer the beer ages. I'm not sure if the tang gets worse or if the other flavors fade enough for this flavor to become more noticeable.

I'm currently trying to troubleshoot it by brewing with different water, doing full boils, doing all grain, and using different fermenters. I did a batch of Apocalypso extract with a full boil and I haven't noticed any of that flavor yet. I'm still waiting on my all grain 90 minute clone, but there was no trace of the flavor during bottling. I'm also waiting on a partigyle I did from the 90 minute mash using only my glass carboy (the others have been in my bucket).

 

[jwible204]

S04 is the only yeast I've used, in well over 100 batches, that I've had any tartness/sour issues with. I did, however, just use it again in BM's Oktoberfast and everything turned out great (no tartness).

 

[thetragichero]

for what it's worth, i'm guessing the sourness was from yeast in solution. after two weeks in the bottle, my oatmeal stout had an 1/8 inch of yeast on the bottom of the bottle

 

[afr0byte]

It's been discussed long in another Thread and the Conclusion was that I'm far away from the Infection , as I described my

sanitizing process and the whole brew day in details .

The Beer is crystal clear in bottles before chilling and there is no ring or any white surface .

Hector

It's possible that you have a lot of magnesium in your water. I've never tasted water with a lot of magnesium, but supposedly it can cause a sour taste in a beer if it's in high concentrations.

 

[TwoGunz]

I'm a big fan of S-04 and have switched all my stouts and porters to it from Notty which I find has way more of a noticeable tart bite to it even when fermented cool.

 

[hector]

It's possible that you have a lot of magnesium in your water. I've never tasted water with a lot of magnesium, but supposedly it can cause a sour taste in a beer if it's in high concentrations.

By my previous batches , I used distilled water ( Mg = 0 ppm ) .

By my last batch , I used bottled spring water ( Mg = 12 ppm ) .

So , as you see , the concentration of the Magnesium Ion is not too high .

Hector

 

[TimTrone]

It's been discussed long in another Thread and the Conclusion was that I'm far away from the Infection , as I described my

sanitizing process and the whole brew day in details .

The Beer is crystal clear in bottles before chilling and there is no ring or any white surface .

Hector

Do your bottles seem overly carbonated? I had a sour beer before, and it was due to a infection.

 

[hector]

Do your bottles seem overly carbonated? I had a sour beer before, and it was due to a infection.

I've never had any over-carbonated bottle .

Hector

 

[TimTrone]

I've never had any over-carbonated bottle .

Hector

Hmmmm. I'm stumped. I don't think it's the yeast, water it fine, and it also sounds like you don't have a infection problem. Hopefully Denny can chime in on this.

 

[hector]

the trick with S-04 is to get the beer of the trub and cake fast. A week in the primary, even if your not at FG.

I've brewed recently a small Extract batch , using S-04 and kept it for 1 Week in the Primary .

I racked it to the Secondary yesterday and tasted a little of it .

The good News is that there were NO SOURNESS which I always had by my previous batches .

I noticed a thin layer of the yeast at the bottom of the Secondary , as I took a look at it today . I think it's been transferred by the time of racking .

Can I leave it so for two Weeks , anyway ?!

Or

Should I rack it again , so that the dead yeast wouldn't give me a sour Beer ?

Hector

 

[DrummoRC]

I wish I read this thread before I made my last three or four batches!!! I hated - Disliked! All three! Sour or Tart what ever you want to call it I don't like it.

I do not have any control over my ferm temp due to the fact that I don't have a temp control frig. I rely on my basement being fairly consistent. if this yeast requires a more controlled temp then I will use US-05

 

[FatsSchindee]

I just stumbled across this thread, wasn't looking for this sour S-04 issue at all... But it made me realize that I too have experienced this! I've only used that yeast twice (rehydrated and fermented in temp controlled chest freezer both times).

The first time was in a double chocolate coffee stout, where I used cold-steeped coffee in the bottling bucket. The beer tasted awesome at first, with a great coffee nose and flavor. But as the coffee mellowed out over time (within the first month or so), I started to notice a sour, almost acidic type flavor coming through. It wasn't too overpowering that I wouldn't not finish the beer or anything, but it definitely made it less tasty than it originally had been. My first though was possible contamination, as I reviewed my process and realized I used an unsanitized coffee grinder to grind the beans before the cold steep. Until I read this thread last night, I assumed that's what it was.

I also have a fresh Pumpkin ESB that I used S-04 in. It bottle carbed up just in time for Halloween last week, and tasted great. I just has another one last night, though, and think that I almost tasted some of that same sour flavor coming out. Was hoping it would get even better by Thanksgiving, but now I'm wondering if it'll just get more sour.

The stout I fermented at 64*F for 12 days, then raised to 68 for 8 days, and then 72 for the last 8 days before bottling (hadn't quite hit expected FG, so raised to try to keep yeast working. S-04 says ideal temp put to 70, but max 75, so I figured it'd be okay...). The ESB I fermented at 60 for 8 days, then raised to 62 for 6 days. Fined with gelatin and crashed at 34 for just one day, then bottled. I aimed for the low end of the range on this one because I didn't want the fruity esters to compete too much with the pumpkin pie spice and pumpkin flavor. I'm hoping the fact of the lower fermentation temps and the gelatin binding more yeast out of the beer will keep this one from getting too sour as well. If I remember, I'll report back in a month or so and update...