roasted barley versus black patent

[ronjonacron]

So I'm just finishing up what I think I'm going to call my chocolate milk stout recipe. I have just a couple questions before i go to pick up ingredients for this tomorrow.

I'm looking for solid roast flavor, but not too terribly much astringency. Now i understand this is subjective, but that is my reasoning for having more chocolate malt than RB. Is there a place in this recipe for a few ounces of black patent? It seems like some threads are saying that black patent isn't as astringent as roasted barley, but that black patent also cannot replace roasted barley altogether. Would i see any difference in using just 3-4 OZ of black patent (in addition to the RB), or split the two as I've seen a couple recipes (ex. 7oz RB and 7oz black patent.)
Also, not listed in the recipe but I'm using 1# lactose. Is there any key ingredient I should add to this? Does is really matter which crystal I use?

My main focus here is the RB vs BP, but any further advice would certainly be welcome.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Chocolate Milk Stout
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Sweet Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.52 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.98 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 41.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 31.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.8 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 68.2 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.1 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 9.1 %
12.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.8 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.8 %
1.00 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 18.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 13.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Pub Ale (Brewtek #CL-0050) [5 Yeast 8 -

 

[Bob]

I don't know how anyone can say Black Patent Malt is less astringent than Roasted Barley. In my experience that's entirely backwards. Too much Black Patent and you end up with a phenolic, astringent cup of ashes. Too much Roasted Barley and you end up with coffee. Or, you know, STOUT.

I've tasted a lot of homebrew. I can tell you without reservation that the beers I've had which made me shudder and struggle to find something nice to say in a critique were beers where brewers used Black Patent in Roasted Barley amounts.

That said, BP can add something to a Stout grist, especially Imperial Stout and American Stout. Dry Irish and Oatmeal, not so much. I find it inappropriate there.

In Oatmeal Stout, you're looking for very specific things, and you want them to come from the oats. You certainly don't want a cacophony of roasted malts battling where the oats should shine. That's why I'd swap out the Crystal for more oats, as well as 4 ounces of the Roasted Barley. You don't really need the Crystal in this. You don't want the caramelly sweetness the C60 will bring to the table, and you'll get plenty of body out of the oats.

Me, I approach Oatmeal Stout in exactly the same way as classic Dry Irish Stout (10% Roasted Barley, 20% flaked, 70% pale malt). I just swap flaked oats for the flaked barley, mash for an OG of around 1.045, and call it a day. But I adore Oatmeal Stout with a proportion of the roasted grain being Chocolate Malt. It's a different flavor, very attractive, not as assertive as all Roasted Barley.

You don't really need the lactose either. I fear if you add all that unfermentable stuff, you'll end up with a beer you can cut with a fork. If that's what you're shooting for, fine, but I'd rather drink my beer than chew it. Even Oatmeal Stout should leave you feeling "more-ish", that is to say, "I'd like another." A recipe like you're proposing wouldn't do that for me. But like I said, if that's what you're after, have at it!

But definitely no Black Patent.



Bob

 

[ArcaneXor]

I am with Bob - Black Malt is much more acrid than Roasted Barley in large amounts. That said, it does work well in milk stouts. Zainasheff's recipe doesn't have any Roasted Barley, just a pound of Black Malt, and it tastes good. I wouldn't add Black Malt to other styles of stout in any significant amount.

If you want less astringency, there is a debittered Black Malt from Dingemans you could use.

As for the crystal, something in the 60 to 80 range is ideal. I would use an English one, like Muntons C 55/65 or Crisp C-77.

 

[Mike37]

I love black malt with lactose. You still get all the great coffee and bitter chocolate flavors and a lot of the astringency gets offset by the lactose to the point that it's not noticeable.

That's probably just my weird tastes though.