RO Water Treatment

[jdr01]

I have been lurking and reading for awhile now. I want to move to "All Grain".
I have searched posts in regard to filters and still am not sure weather an "R.O." filter is a good option for all grain. There is a great deal of discussion about these filters but they have just made me more confused.
I will be filtering city water that is drinkable but has noticeable suspended particles and a chlorine odor.
So is there any real reason I should not use a Reverse Osmosis System?

Thanks

 

[ChuckO]

One nice thing about RO water is that you know the baseline mineral content so can build any water profile that you want.

If you have noticeable suspended particles as well as a chlorine odor then you have to do something, probably more than just filtering.

 

[jdr01]

I think I will go that route and add what I need.

Thanks

 

[BBL_Brewer]

I can't think of a good reason why you shouldn't, unless you don't want to or can't afford to buy one. Depending on the style you brew, you may need to adjust your RO water with brewing salts though. Check out this thread. RO systems are really pretty simple. They are just a series of filters. You have sediment filters that remove large particulates, carbon block filters that remove chlorine, and (the main event) the RO membrane that actually does most of the work and removes the dissolved material in your water. There are quite a few configurations and sizes of these filters and that may be what's confusing you.

 

[yso191]

I brew with 100% RO water. I like it because it works with all styles of beer. It does mean that you have to have water software (i.e. Brun' Water) so that you can predict mash pH and flavor ions.

Be sure that the RO system you buy has a charcoal filter. That will remove the chlorine. Also, with visible particulates, I would also recommend a series of pre-filters. The reason for this is the expense of the RO membrane.

I have a whole house filter that catches most of the gunk. then under the kitchen sink there is the standard Culligan RO system consisting of a pre filter, a charcoal filter and the RO membrane. I'm going on 4 years with the RO membrane this way. Before the whole house filter I would get maybe 1.5 years out of the RO membrane. I change the other filters annually.

Steve

 

[dlester]

I only use RO water. My city water comes from a well with too much carbonates and salts. I filtered it, but it tasted slightly salty. It works great for dark beers but not so much for the light beers. I typically use 3-5 grams of Gypsum to give my beers a dry clean taste. I also use a pH buffer from the brew store to provide the needed minerals in the mash.

Cheers, and good luck.

 

[Col_klink]

+1 on the article BBL referenced above.

 

[mabrungard]

I have been lurking and reading for awhile now. I want to move to "All Grain".
I have searched posts in regard to filters and still am not sure weather an "R.O." filter is a good option for all grain. There is a great deal of discussion about these filters but they have just made me more confused.
I will be filtering city water that is drinkable but has noticeable suspended particles and a chlorine odor.
So is there any real reason I should not use a Reverse Osmosis System?

Thanks

RO definitely has its advantages. However, you may have a very good brewing water coming out of your tap. Finding out what it's profile is, will help you determine if you should move to RO. You always CAN move to RO, but its a waste of your dollars if you don't need to.

The sediment and chlorine can easily be taken care of for far less than the cost of a RO system. Don't go blindly. If you are moving to AG, then you will want to use those excess funds to get other nifty equipment.

 

[jdr01]

Thanks for all the great responses. I think i will go with just a particulate and carbon filter for now.

This is a link to my water report:
http://www.villageofwarwick.org/postings/2012drinkwaterrpt.pdf

If anyone reads it and thinks I made a poor choice, please let me know.

I make mostly IPA's, Brown Ale and Stout

Thanks

 

[BBL_Brewer]

Thanks for all the great responses. I think i will go with just a particulate and carbon filter for now.

This is a link to my water report:
http://www.villageofwarwick.org/postings/2012drinkwaterrpt.pdf

If anyone reads it and thinks I made a poor choice, please let me know.

I make mostly IPA's, Brown Ale and Stout

Thanks

Those reports don't help you much when it comes to brewing water. That is only the information that the EPA requires them to provide you every year. You should be able to call them and get more information. I've done that with my provider. Or send in a water sample to ward labs (expensive option). You need to know what your total alkalinity is, and what your sodium, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, chloride and free chlorine / chloramine levels are. That will determine what kind of water treatment you need (if any) for the styles that you brew. A sediment filter will only remove large particles that are not dissolved in the water. It will not filter out dissolved solids, so they really do nothing to the water that will help you from a brewing perspective (except maybe pull out rust chips coming off of your distribution lines). The carbon filter will help, but depending on what kind you get, they may not filter out chloramine and you still might need to use campden or K-meta to neutralize the chloramine. Just letting you know what you are getting before you start buying stuff so that you can effectively accomplish your goal, whatever that may be.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Thanks for all the great responses. I think i will go with just a particulate and carbon filter for now.

This is a link to my water report:
http://www.villageofwarwick.org/postings/2012drinkwaterrpt.pdf

If anyone reads it and thinks I made a poor choice, please let me know.

I make mostly IPA's, Brown Ale and Stout

Thanks

I didn't read all the text on that report, but it appeared to only contain the contaminant levels, and not the other pertinent things you need like Calcium, Bicarbonate, PH, sulfate, sodium, chlorine, total hardeness, alkalinity etc...

If you want to dig deeper, I'd suggest consulting Bru'n water's input tab and calling the water department and asking for an engineer to talk to. Frequently these guys are very eager to talk water...so you might be able to get the numbers and plug them right into the spreadsheet. Without that info there's really no way to know if you'd need an RO unit or if mere charcoal filtration will render you good brewing water. That said, there's a good chance it will, as many municipalities do indeed have good brewing water coming right out the tap. I'm not so lucky so I go all RO and build my water back up.

Edit: What BBL said! LOL...

 

[BugAC]

I am using R/O water for the first time myself. I'm brewing an IPA. I was going to add 1 tsp of gypsum, and 1 tsp of salt to get the desired profile. Everything looks good, except, it appears my mash ph is too high (5.64). Could someone take a look at this calculator and help me understand why my ph is too high, and what i need to do to fix it? Or, is the ph high due to the grains, and thus will not have an impact.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=QTBM4GX

 

[BugAC]

and FYI, i've been using Baton Rouge water without any additions other than 5.2 stabilizer in the past. And all of my beers have come out great. Just had a fellow local brewer suggest using RO with some salts for an IPA, after having a chemist and brewer talk to the local brew club. Figure i'd give it a try, but i'd hate to mess up a good thing.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I am using R/O water for the first time myself. I'm brewing an IPA. I was going to add 1 tsp of gypsum, and 1 tsp of salt to get the desired profile. Everything looks good, except, it appears my mash ph is too high (5.64). Could someone take a look at this calculator and help me understand why my ph is too high, and what i need to do to fix it? Or, is the ph high due to the grains, and thus will not have an impact.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=QTBM4GX

5.64 isn't too high fwiw. Recommended mash range it 5.2-5.8. 5.4-5.5 is ideal but you're very close. Typically mash PH rises a tenth or two as mash duration increases, so keep this in mind when you're actually mashing and measuring your PH.

If you want to get it down to 5.4 from 5.6, add some acid malt to the grist or 1 drop per gallon of lactic acid. As a drop ranges from .003ml to .006ml though, I'd be conservative and start with one drop per 2 gallons and measure my PH to see where it lies in the real world.

Your PH as input in that sheet is 6 though, that seems low to me for RO water. Mine is 7.6...you might double check that as it affects the calculations.

 

[BugAC]

well i was doing some research on RO ph, and it stated that typically, RO water has a ph of between 5 and 6. I just adjusted for 7.6 and that didn't do anything to the mash ph according to the calculator.

 

[jbaysurfer]

well i was doing some research on RO ph, and it stated that typically, RO water has a ph of between 5 and 6. I just adjusted for 7.6 and that didn't do anything to the mash ph according to the calculator.

I could be wrong in that it doesn't affect the calculations, but I'm not sure how it wouldn't??? I did notice the same thing as you though. It didn't seem to change the mash ph calculations for me either.

Also, I noticed that you called the Caraamber and Carapils base malts. I believe (and hopefully someone will straighten me out if I'm not) those ARE crystal malts and thus affect PH. When I changed them to crystal malts it does increase mash ph two tenths.

But I'm trying to help, and I don't want to steer you wrong, so I'm gonna lay low and maybe Martin or AJ or someone with more savvy then me can chime in.

 

[BugAC]

oh yeah, i forgot to update the grain type. Let me go do that. Thanks.

 

[BugAC]

So i did some adjustments. I misinterpreted some advice from a friend. He meant calcium chloride not calcium carbonate. If i add 4 grams of gypsum and 5 grams of cacl2 plus 2 oz. of acidulated malt, gets me down to ph of 5.46. That should do it.

 

[jbaysurfer]

So i did some adjustments. I misinterpreted some advice from a friend. He meant calcium chloride not calcium carbonate. If i add 4 grams of gypsum and 5 grams of cacl2 plus 2 oz. of acidulated malt, gets me down to ph of 5.46. That should do it.

There ya go. I noticed there was no calcium chloride in your salts, but I figured I was going to address your mash PH for you and so I didn't mention it. Nice work on the acid malt calculation.

 

[BugAC]

Again, can't take credit for the acid malt. Another friend suggested it.

This will be my first batch brewed where I actually pay attention to water. The water here in BR makes some damn fine beer, but i'm curious of how much improvement this will make on my IPA. I've brewed this one before and it was great. Anxious to brew this one again.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Unlike you ^ my water sucks big time! It's not BAD persay, it's just way too high in sulfates and dissolved solids to use without at least cutting it with RO. As is, RO is pretty cheap from my local supplier so I just went all RO and learned chemistry by application and I have to say my beers went to another level. I had great competitive year last year and will even have a beer in the Pro-Am category at GABF (obvious brag post). I think the water, and of course the skill gained by experience is the reason. If you love the idea of controlling everything you can until you let the yeast take over the work water chemistry needs to be in your toolbox.

I'm still learning though...many thanks to AJ and Martin for being active on this board and willing to help!

 

[BugAC]

That's awesome man. Yeah i competed in my first competition last month. I got an average score, and i was honestly not expecting anything higher. I knew the faults in the beer, and i was well out of style guidelines, just didn't have another brew to submit at the time. But the comments really are going to help me when I brew it again.

I really want to submit this one i'm brewing Sunday, but can't find a tournament within 200 miles to send it to.

 

[BugAC]

Here is what i've been using before for water profile. Keep in mind, it's from 2010 or 2012, so it may have changed. But this has made some really good beer. I would typically throw in some 5.2 stabilizer and that's all. But i believe RO is what i will be doing from here on out.

BATON ROUGE LA 70810
S MUIRFIELD
pH 8.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 196
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.33
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.3 / 3.5
ppm
Sodium, Na 75
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3- N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 3
Chloride, Cl 6
Carbonate, CO3 21
Bicarbonate, HCO3 145
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 154

 

[mabrungard]

Here is what i've been using before for water profile. Keep in mind, it's from 2010 or 2012, so it may have changed. But this has made some really good beer. I would typically throw in some 5.2 stabilizer and that's all. But i believe RO is what i will be doing from here on out.

BATON ROUGE LA 70810
S MUIRFIELD
pH 8.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 196
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.33
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.3 / 3.5
ppm
Sodium, Na 75
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3- N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 3
Chloride, Cl 6
Carbonate, CO3 21
Bicarbonate, HCO3 145
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 154

That is ion-exchange softened water. It's not terrible for brewing, but the sodium content is higher than I prefer. Don't bother with the 5.2 stuff, it does not work at all. You need to use an acid to neutralize that bicarbonate content. Then you have a decent brewing water (excepting for the sodium).