RO Water Adjustment for a Stout.

[Bigarcherynut]

I have posted a few threads in regards to my well water and brewing. I had a water test run by Ward Labs and asked for help with water adjustments. I have had much help and most input was to use some or all RO water due to to the hardness and other levels of my well water. I recently purchased a RO system. I'm now playing with adjustments to the RO water to brew a Left Hand Nitro Stout. I have decided to use 100% RO water and start clean as a few have suggested. I'm using the program Bru'N Water.

I'm posting a snap shot of both my well water test and my attempt at adjusting 100% RO water for my stout. I selected a Brown Full profile as my starting point for my brew water.

Hoping for some input on how you feel my first attempt is. I'm very new at the chemistry part of brewing so keep it simple for me. Been doing my share of reading and starting to get an understanding of this process.

I'm brewing BIAB with no sparge.

Thanks.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Scrap the chalk. For a whole host of reasons, it basically does nothing but cause problems. If you need to add alkalinity (which for this beer, starting from RO water you probably will need a little), use baking soda instead. Although I wouldn't add any alkalinity unless you absolutely need it. If losing the chalk entirely brings your pH down to 5.45, I'd just do that instead, but I do think 5.5 pH works well for stouts.

 

[Yooper]

What would be ideal is to use your tap water, and dilute it some with the RO water.

You can put your tap water in bru'nwater and use the dilution tool to get the perfect amount of alkalinity in it.

Don't use chalk at all, as mentioned, as it doesn't dissolve properly without extraneous measures.

You want a mash pH of 5.5 or so, so I'd try 50/50 tap water/RO water first to see what that does to the mash pH. Then, from there you can add calcium chloride for flavor and calcium.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

What would be ideal is to use your tap water, and dilute it some with the RO water.

You can put your tap water in bru'nwater and use the dilution tool to get the perfect amount of alkalinity in it.

Don't use chalk at all, as mentioned, as it doesn't dissolve properly without extraneous measures.

You want a mash pH of 5.5 or so, so I'd try 50/50 tap water/RO water first to see what that does to the mash pH. Then, from there you can add calcium chloride for flavor and calcium.

When I first started playing with Bru'N Water I tried 50/50 and still struggled getting the numbers right. My Mg is also pretty high. I thought it would be easier going pure RO. I'll play with the numbers some more.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Ok, I got rid of the chalk. Would this be better. My pH is still in the range.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I wouldn't worry too much about hitting every number to meet a given profile. Sodium, sulfate, and chloride are going to have the principle flavor impacts, with sodium being secondary. Bicarbonate and alkalinity are only needed for pH purposes, and while a calcium level >50ppm is good for beerstone prevention and yeast nutrition, it's not the end of world if you don't have it, and again it doesn't have any other notable purpose beyond pH. Magnesium isn't really all that important in any regard (mine stays 6-10 ppm year round so I just never mess with it), and diluted the level's no too high to really be problematic.

Point here, tailor your sulfate and chloride to the levels you want in the profile, and tailor the others to your desired mash pH (again for a stout 5.5 is a good target, I'd try to be in 5.45-5.55 range), not to the profile ("full brown" does not describe the actual chemistry of your grain bill- Bru'N Water can be much more specific than that).

I'd probably start with 25% tap water to 75% RO and go from there.

 

[Yooper]

When I first started playing with Bru'N Water I tried 50/50 and still struggled getting the numbers right. My Mg is also pretty high. I thought it would be easier going pure RO. I'll play with the numbers some more.

Thanks for your input.

If you go 50/50 with RO/tap the magnesium is definitely not too high. It seems weird to me to take it out with more RO water, then add some back in calcium chloride.

I'd still suggest 50/50, with a smidgeon of calcium chloride, leaving out gypsum and magnesium chloride. That's simple, and should get you close.

That "profile" isn't really any sort of target- the calcium is great anywhere at 50+ ppm, as Qhrumphf mentioned (but not necessary), and you don't need gypsum (sulfate) in a stout. No need to increase the sulfate. To me, it's just simpler to use RO and tap and one other ingredient (calcium chloride) and ensure a proper mash pH>

 

[Qhrumphf]

You posted while I was typing my reply. Oops. I'd say your most recent one looks pretty good. I'm assuming you don't have a pH meter, but I'd double check the mash pH before adding the baking soda.

 

[ajdelange]

He's got 7.5 mEq/L alkalinity! He'll want to get that down to about 1 for a typical stout. That means 6.5 parts RO water per part of tap water. Probably be OK with that but bit of CaCl2 wouldn't hurt.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

If you go 50/50 with RO/tap the magnesium is definitely not too high. It seems weird to me to take it out with more RO water, then add some back in calcium chloride.

I'd still suggest 50/50, with a smidgeon of calcium chloride, leaving out gypsum and magnesium chloride. That's simple, and should get you close.

That "profile" isn't really any sort of target- the calcium is great anywhere at 50+ ppm, as Qhrumphf mentioned (but not necessary), and you don't need gypsum (sulfate) in a stout. No need to increase the sulfate. To me, it's just simpler to use RO and tap and one other ingredient (calcium chloride) and ensure a proper mash pH>

I ran some numbers using 50/50 mixture and was not able to get my pH in range. I did change it to 75 RO/25 and got the pH I'm looking for but wonder about the other numbers.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

You posted while I was typing my reply. Oops. I'd say your most recent one looks pretty good. I'm assuming you don't have a pH meter, but I'd double check the mash pH before adding the baking soda.

I do have a pH meter so I can test.

That will be the next thing I need to research. What to add if my pH is off when I brewing.

As you can see by my previous post I'm back to playing with different dilution percentages. 75% RO seems to be the lowest I can go maybe.

 

[ajdelange]

I ran some numbers using 50/50 mixture and was not able to get my pH in range.

No surprise there.

I did change it to 75 RO/25 and got the pH I'm looking for but wonder about the other numbers.

Maybe. You have almost 8 mEq/L alkalinity. A 3:1 dilution will get you down to a bit under 2. Ten percent black malt will give you about pH 5.5 - 5.7 depending on base malt characteristics.You might be OK but it would be wise to check with a meter.

 

[UndeadFred]

What Yooper said. I have a TDS of around 200 and even that is too hard for most beers so I decided to forgo the lab test and just do RO. The exception for me is stouts, I can make a good stout with nothing other than 2/3 of my well water and 1/3 RO (every time!). I'll have the water czars criticize me but it's not that critical with the darker beers. Anything lighter than a porter I will build up. I might cheat a little and throw in a gallon of the unknown well water with "ambers" but it always seems to work fine.

I do seem to have a lot of temporary hardness in my water, though. You can tell this by boiling and cooling. You will get a layer of chalk in the water... I suppose I should mention that.

Also my pH is very close to neutral. At 7.6 you might want to add a little phosphoric or lactic acid if you do your water mixed with RO. At 436 PPM maybe 1/3 tap and 2/3 RO would work with a little acid. Don't over think this.

 

[Yooper]

I ran some numbers using 50/50 mixture and was not able to get my pH in range. I did change it to 75 RO/25 and got the pH I'm looking for but wonder about the other numbers.

The 75% RO looks good, except I'd lower the calcium chloride to have the calcium and chloride both under 100 ppm.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

The 75% RO looks good, except I'd lower the calcium chloride to have the calcium and chloride both under 100 ppm.

Here's my change. Thanks so much for your input on this.

As simple as this seems to be I get lost trying to find what profile my water should be for the different styles of beer I make. I guess reading and experimenting should get me there but it's great to have so many people willing to assist.

Again thanks.

 

[Yooper]

The mash pH is a bit too high. Can you add a greater percentage of RO water to bring it to 5.5? I'm on my tablet and don't have great views or bru'nwater to really see it well, but I like the amounts of calcium and chloride you have there. I'd like to see the mash pH at 5.5, though.

 

[jmcquesten]

The mash pH is a bit too high. Can you add a greater percentage of RO water to bring it to 5.5? I'm on my tablet and don't have great views or bru'nwater to really see it well, but I like the amounts of calcium and chloride you have there. I'd like to see the mash pH at 5.5, though.

Sorry to hijack, but is it possible that me building water from 100%RO would have made a non-fermentable wort? Water profile was for a light/malty beer (according to brewersfriend.com). Added additions to get me in range and a few oz acid malt. Could I have created a completely non-fermentable wort? I pitched a 5 liter starter in a 12 gallon batch of Helles lager at 50°F. 5 days later, no activity (krausen, airlock, gravity drop), so I pitched 3 packs of dry yeast. One bucket slowly showed signs, the other still didn't, 10 days later. One will be dumped, the other one will ride for a little longer.

Could the additions have caused this? I've mixed RO and tap water up to this point, and never had an issue like this.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

The mash pH is a bit too high. Can you add a greater percentage of RO water to bring it to 5.5? I'm on my tablet and don't have great views or bru'nwater to really see it well, but I like the amounts of calcium and chloride you have there. I'd like to see the mash pH at 5.5, though.

I went from 75% to 80% RO and that brought my pH to 5.54 and I'm in the green. I can also change the calcium chloride from .5 to .55 and my calcium will be 71 and the chloride will be 98 with a pH of 5.53 if that helps.

Again thanks.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sorry to hijack, but is it possible that me building water from 100%RO would have made a non-fermentable wort? Water profile was for a light/malty beer (according to brewersfriend.com). Added additions to get me in range and a few oz acid malt. Could I have created a completely non-fermentable wort? I pitched a 5 liter starter in a 12 gallon batch of Helles lager at 50°F. 5 days later, no activity (krausen, airlock, gravity drop), so I pitched 3 packs of dry yeast. One bucket slowly showed signs, the other still didn't, 10 days later. One will be dumped, the other one will ride for a little longer.

Could the additions have caused this? I've mixed RO and tap water up to this point, and never had an issue like this.

I'd find that highly unlikely. Unless the pH was so far out of whack that you didn't get starch conversion (which given the above sounds unlikely, not sure you'd absolutely be at the right pH for optimal flavor given the post, but sounds like it should least be "it'll make beer" range), I doubt its water related. There's probably something else in the process causing the problem. Lagers take longer obviously, but 10 days even with pitching new yeast, yeah, I'd be worried too.

 

[Shwagger]

Necro an old thread to get input on this profile. Bru'n Water seems to dish out what i need to do, according to using "Black balanced" profile.

RO water being used

Grains:
% LOV
2 Row Pale Malt 75% 2
Dark Choc 9% 420
60L 7.5% 60
Flaked barley 7.5% 1.7
Black Patent 1% 500