Reusing sour equipment

[DurtyChemist]

I made a "berliner weiss" using Gigayeast's fast lacto. The beer sat for over a month before I kegged it. I cleaned the plastic bucket out then sanatized it while brewing. I had extra beer so I figured I'd make a starter from the wort that would otherwise be tossed. Since the wort was 1.070 I figured I'd let it go for a while and check the gravity before I pitched the yeast into my 5 gallon batch. Using Wyeast 1214 it took the 2L starter down to 1.020 in 36 hours on a stirplate.

While the starter was going I saw "fermentation" going on. Since the beer was cooling from the high 70's I figured it was just oxygen coming out of the beer because of the temperature. When I'm about to pitch the yeast I get the idea to check the gravity. 1.030... I think I'm making a lactobacilus fermented Belgian Dubbel. The bucket was free of trub/yeast prior to adding wort. I'm kind of exited to see how it comes out truthfully.


Any way to sanatize the carboy enough to use it for ales or should I just toss it and switch to a PET carboy with hauler? Would letting the carboy sit for a week kill everything?

I let my autosiphon and hose sit in StarSan for 5 days and it changed the color of the hose AND the StarSan to a milky color so I'm assuming it's bacteria free. I have another bucket I used for the "berliner weisse" so the problem is potentially x2.

 

[bovineblitz]

I made a "berliner weiss" using Gigayeast's fast lacto. The beer sat for over a month before I kegged it. I cleaned the plastic bucket out then sanatized it while brewing. I had extra beer so I figured I'd make a starter from the wort that would otherwise be tossed. Since the wort was 1.070 I figured I'd let it go for a while and check the gravity before I pitched the yeast into my 5 gallon batch. Using Wyeast 1214 it took the 2L starter down to 1.020 in 36 hours on a stirplate.

While the starter was going I saw "fermentation" going on. Since the beer was cooling from the high 70's I figured it was just oxygen coming out of the beer because of the temperature. When I'm about to pitch the yeast I get the idea to check the gravity. 1.030... I think I'm making a lactobacilus fermented Belgian Dubbel. The bucket was free of trub/yeast prior to adding wort. I'm kind of exited to see how it comes out truthfully.


Any way to sanatize the carboy enough to use it for ales or should I just toss it and switch to a PET carboy with hauler? Would letting the carboy sit for a week kill everything?

I let my autosiphon and hose sit in StarSan for 5 days and it changed the color of the hose AND the StarSan to a milky color so I'm assuming it's bacteria free. I have another bucket I used for the "berliner weisse" so the problem is potentially x2.

This is very confusing.

 

[Hopper5000]

Anything that is plastic that you used post boil for your sour beer should be its own sour equipment. Plastic a porous and once the sour bugs get in the pores it is very difficult to get them out. For best sanitation practices most people I know use separate equipment for their sours vs clean beers.

 

[JordanKnudson]

This is very confusing.

Agreed.

However, to the question that it seems is being asked, basically here's the rule: If you use plastic for a sour, that plastic shall be used forevermore for naught but future sours.

 

[bovineblitz]

Anything that is plastic that you used post boil for your sour beer should be its own sour equipment. Plastic a porous and once the sour bugs get in the pores it is very difficult to get them out. For best sanitation practices most people I know use separate equipment for their sours vs clean beers.

I see this all the time but I don't really agree unless someone is beating the **** out of their plastic. Proper cleaning will get rid of bugs just fine, particularly in fermenters because they're easy to clean. I can see having separate tubing/racking if you're worried, but I've never separated any of my equipment and have had no cross-contamination issues over the course of 3 years of sour/regular brewing with the same equipment. Silicone tubing helps because you can boil it.

 

[Hopper5000]

I see this all the time but I don't really agree unless someone is beating the **** out of their plastic. Proper cleaning will get rid of bugs just fine, particularly in fermenters because they're easy to clean. I can see having separate tubing/racking if you're worried, but I've never separated any of my equipment and have had no cross-contamination issues over the course of 3 years of sour/regular brewing with the same equipment. Silicone tubing helps because you can boil it.

I don't like to take risks which is why I said "best sanitation practices". That is great that you haven't had any problems but I know a lot of people who have and/or eventually have had issues. I have talked with many pro-brewers who will tell you the same thing about plastic. Silicone is a great way to get around the issue but, as said, I would personally use different equipment. For me, I do a lot of clean barrel aged beers which are expensive and take a lot of time and effort. I also do sour stuff too. It's really terrible when a beer like that gets messed up because of cross contamination.

 

[bovineblitz]

I don't like to take risks which is why I said "best sanitation practices". That is great that you haven't had any problems but I know a lot of people who have and/or eventually have had issues. I have talked with many pro-brewers who will tell you the same thing about plastic. Silicone is a great way to get around the issue but, as said, I would personally use different equipment. For me, I do a lot of clean barrel aged beers which are expensive and take a lot of time and effort. I also do sour stuff too. It's really terrible when a beer like that gets messed up because of cross contamination.

I get that, but I guess I just wanted to emphasize that with proper cleaning there is no issue. Bugs don't magically resist cleaning, I find it bothersome that there's this story out there about how we've got these immortal bacteria and yeast strains that forever contaminate anything they touch.

In barrels I'd be absurdly careful like you're doing since the bugs essentially DO live forever in the wood, but with plastic and glass there's no reason to assume your cleaning/sanitation isn't sufficient. If I'm at all worried I just thoroughly clean a second time, it's a lot less of a commitment than spending hundreds on extra equipment.

 

[JordanKnudson]

I get that, but I guess I just wanted to emphasize that with proper cleaning there is no issue. Bugs don't magically resist cleaning, I find it bothersome that there's this story out there about how we've got these immortal bacteria and yeast strains that forever contaminate anything they touch.

In barrels I'd be absurdly careful like you're doing since the bugs essentially DO live forever in the wood, but with plastic and glass there's no reason to assume your cleaning/sanitation isn't sufficient. If I'm at all worried I just thoroughly clean a second time, it's a lot less of a commitment than spending hundreds on extra equipment.

Hundreds? Where the heck are you buying your equipment? Plastic bucket + airlock + a few feet of tubing + a bottling wand = like $30 at the lhbs

 

[Siberian]

I don't worry about it too much at all with my plastic stuff, but I stopped cleaning it entirely.

I got a bunch of HDPE food grade plastic liners, I pop a new liner in the bucket for each batch, quick, easy, always clean. End of the batch I just grab the bag and toss it in the trash once I rack the beer out.

( I do have different racking equipment/etc, but not fermentors )

 

[Hopper5000]

Yeah I agree with you on the barrel stuff. I wasn't implying that I go from sour to clean beer in barrels (that is a really bad idea for the reasons you mentioned), just that I use only equipment that has touched clean beer when doing transfers and such.

I agree with you on glass, if you clean this properly then you are fine and don't have to worry about it.

I am just saying I don't trust plastic that much when it's come in contact with sour beer. I am pretty anal about this stuff though.

I also don't really agree with the statement that with proper cleaning there is no issue with plastic equipment that has come into contact with sour beer. However, I am fine with agreeing to disagree

 

[secondbase]

With proper sanitation practices, I don't worry about glass too much. Plastic can scratch very easily and bugs will be next to impossible to remove from, so I have a separate set of plastic equipment for funky/sour beers.

 

[bovineblitz]

Hundreds? Where the heck are you buying your equipment? Plastic bucket + airlock + a few feet of tubing + a bottling wand = like $30 at the lhbs

If you're going to have any number of sours, you need quite a few fermenters. I have about 12 with only one or two empty at any given time, I'd have to have at least 6 more if I were to attempt to keep everything separate.

Edit: They're mostly plastic with a couple borosilicate glass carboys thrown in. Plastic is the ****.

 

[505-Brewer]

I made a "berliner weiss" using Gigayeast's fast lacto. The beer sat for over a month before I kegged it. I cleaned the plastic bucket out then sanatized it while brewing. I had extra beer so I figured I'd make a starter from the wort that would otherwise be tossed. Since the wort was 1.070 I figured I'd let it go for a while and check the gravity before I pitched the yeast into my 5 gallon batch. Using Wyeast 1214 it took the 2L starter down to 1.020 in 36 hours on a stirplate.

While the starter was going I saw "fermentation" going on. Since the beer was cooling from the high 70's I figured it was just oxygen coming out of the beer because of the temperature. When I'm about to pitch the yeast I get the idea to check the gravity. 1.030... I think I'm making a lactobacilus fermented Belgian Dubbel. The bucket was free of trub/yeast prior to adding wort. I'm kind of exited to see how it comes out truthfully.


Any way to sanatize the carboy enough to use it for ales or should I just toss it and switch to a PET carboy with hauler? Would letting the carboy sit for a week kill everything?

I let my autosiphon and hose sit in StarSan for 5 days and it changed the color of the hose AND the StarSan to a milky color so I'm assuming it's bacteria free. I have another bucket I used for the "berliner weisse" so the problem is potentially x2.

I agree with others....confusing. There is no way that a few lacto cells would drop gravity that much that fast. Its an error in measurement. Has to be. That sorta infection would take a while to show. Without pH, CFU counts etc its just speculation. If you thought it really dropped gravity that fast you shoulda tasted it and measured pH. Did you?

The milky Starsan is likely Calcium phosphate formation from lack of DI use. Star san and DI water will stay clear for months until you contaminate it. The cloudiness has no correlation to sanitation. If any thing its an inverse correlation. The cloudier the less effective. Hows the beer taste now?

 

[The_Glue]

Can't we just pour boiling water into infected plastic buckets to kill everything inside? Like pasteurizing it.

Do you guys think i could put my auto-syphon into 180F water to pasteurize it?

 

[JordanKnudson]

Another thing that should be mentioned about this, make sure you are very diligent about cleaning your keg after you have a sour in it. The stainless steel is no problem, it cleans up fine, but all of your fittings can harbor the bacteria easily. Then you go to pour a pint of your next beer and bam, you find you've got an infection.

 

[DurtyChemist]

No I didn't taste. I measured the gravity using my hydrometer. It's pretty hard to mess up reading 1.070 and 1.030. Sorry for the confusing post but I'm wondering if it was possible that I didn't sanatizer long enough or if I should have soaked with PBW in hot water for a certain time before sanitizing. The bucket didn't have any film and appeared to be visually free of debris before I sanatizer.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Can't we just pour boiling water into infected plastic buckets to kill everything inside? Like pasteurizing it.

Do you guys think i could put my auto-syphon into 180F water to pasteurize it?

HDPE is--according to Wikipedia--safe up to 230F, so that would work. I regularly dump 180F wort in mine and have yet to melt a bucket. Boiling would also sanitize any glass or metal, like many keg fittings. Soft plastics generally shouldn't be boiled, so that's the hardest item to deal with, although one of the cheaper ones to duplicate.

 

[505-Brewer]

No I didn't taste. I measured the gravity using my hydrometer. It's pretty hard to mess up reading 1.070 and 1.030. Sorry for the confusing post but I'm wondering if it was possible that I didn't sanatizer long enough or if I should have soaked with PBW in hot water for a certain time before sanitizing. The bucket didn't have any film and appeared to be visually free of debris before I sanatizer.

What's the timeframe between 1.070 and 1.030 ? I'm understanding it to be quite short, as in between knockout and pitching yeast. My thoughts are that you didn't read the hydrometer wrong but perhaps it wasn't mixed thoroughly at either reading. It doesn't make any sense otherwise. No lacto would ferment that fast at a low cell count at that temp. But then again maybe I have the timing off.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I put the hydrometer in the fermentation vessel. I can't think of a more homogenous sample. A Berliner Weiss doesn't start at 1.070 which was my main point of not mixing up 1.070 and 1.030.

 

[505-Brewer]

I put the hydrometer in the fermentation vessel. I can't think of a more homogenous sample. A Berliner Weiss doesn't start at 1.070 which was my main point of not mixing up 1.070 and 1.030.

Can you tell me the timeframe it soured within?. Sounds short which means if the beer tastes good keep the culture going, I can't get lacto to sour fast all all with even 5 ibus of hops. Wish I had this issue. Best of luck with your beer.