Recirculation on sparge

[jm43654]

I have looked through several threads and wanted to know if anyone recirculates their sparge for a substantial length of time before pumping to brew kettle. I have tried this technique, using my fly sparge water volume and continually recirculated through the grains for up to 20 minutes. Efficiency is near 70% for a five gallon batch.
Another step may be a no-sparge and just recirculate water through the grain bed at full volume and then pump to the brew kettle after 60 minutes. It seems the recirculation would get as much efficiency as fly sparging or batch sparging.

My plan is to add a rims tube to control the temperature. Right now I am losing about three degrees in 60 minutes and have had to direct-fire my mash tun.
What do you think?

 

[Bensiff]

Yup, continuous recirculation is what you are doing with HERMS or RIMS systems. A full volume mash may dilute things too much.

 

[jm43654]

When using a Rims tube, isn't it typically a full water volume mash? Or is there a sparge also run through the rims tube?

 

[jm43654]

Maybe I need to rephrase this. I have a single tier system. No Rims tube (Yet)
My efficiency has been running under 60%. I fill the mash tun with water, to 162 and add grain, hold for an hour then pump to my brew kettle. Typically slightly more than half my water at 1.25 quarts per pound.
Then I am adding sparge water, holding my temperature at 154 and recirculating the sparge water in the mash tun for up to 30 minutes.
Is there anyone else that has done something similar to this and been successful?

 

[tre9er]

You don't need to sparge for any length of time in particular. Do you fly sparge? Doesn't sound like it since you drained off first runnings then added a sparge addition. Batch sparging is supposed to save time and be able to complete quickly. Time doesn't increase efficiency here. Temps don't either. I get 80% every single brew, over the last 10-15 or so beers and the mash temps, sparge temps, grain bills, mash thickness, sparge volumes, temp loss during mash, etc. all have changed with each beer. What hasn't changed is my grain crush and my mash tun. I've also done one big sparge, two sparges, run off the sparge all at once, stop it, stir, run off the rest, etc. Never changed my efficiency at all.

What's your crush look like and what is your manifold setup?

 

[tre9er]

Also, don't worry about temp loss over a mash. A few degrees can be easily managed by starting the mash a bit higher. I have a lot of experience in this area. It won't affect your efficiency, just your attenuation. Going lower than you intended for any period of time will dry the beer out a little-to-a-lot, depending on how low and for how long. Just add a few degrees if this is happening. Otherwise, if you think the beer is turning out great, there's no reason to adjust anything. Work your system.

 

[jm43654]

Thanks for the response. My mash tun has a brewershardware four legged tube over it to flow the sparge water and I have a single valve that lets water in that I can control the flow. Now I am wondering if it has more to do with my crush then my recirculation. I saw a few threads on here and think it may be too course of crush. I am going to try another batch this weekend and see if I can get my efficiency up.
What do you think of heating the entire volume of water to 168 or so, then adding the grain bill and recirculating the whole thing for 45 minutes. The no sparge and dump all of it into the brew kettle?

 

[tre9er]

Thanks for the response. My mash tun has a brewershardware four legged tube over it to flow the sparge water and I have a single valve that lets water in that I can control the flow. Now I am wondering if it has more to do with my crush then my recirculation. I saw a few threads on here and think it may be too course of crush. I am going to try another batch this weekend and see if I can get my efficiency up.
What do you think of heating the entire volume of water to 168 or so, then adding the grain bill and recirculating the whole thing for 45 minutes. The no sparge and dump all of it into the brew kettle?

So you DO fly sparge. OK. What's your lower manifold look like, your filter medium in the mash tun? I don't fly sparge, my neighbor does. He does it really slowly, never been my thing.

You could try batch sparging. Just mash as you usually would: add grain, stir it really well, then leave it alone for an hour, stir it up, then vorlauf and run it all into the kettle.

Then add your sparge water at about 180*. This will get the grain bed up to 168 or so and denature most of the enzymes. I don't pay particularly close attention to this temp, but whatever. Stir up everything once you've added all your sparge water, then vorlauf and run it into the kettle. You can recirc instead of vorlaufing if you want, I just run about a gallon into a container and pour it gently through a colander back into the tun.

Your crush should be fine, but have some pieces of husks (NOT whole grain) to create the filter bed. I never liked the idea of "cracked" grains. If they just have a crack in them, I've not had good luck with efficiency. I want them broken in two or pulverized, so long as it's not 100% flour. You can use rice hulls (a handful) if you're concerned with slow runoff. Mine is slow at times, but not stuck.

 

[jm43654]

I plan on just changing the grain crush and checking to see if that gets my efficiency up. I will also continue my recirculating batch sparge I think to verify it's just the crush. I would think batch sparge recirculation through the Mash tun is just as effective as fly sparging into the brew kettle.
If that doesn't work I will go to a true batch sparge and see how my efficiency works out.
Thanks for the help

 

[jbaysurfer]

I bet your efficiency problem IS in your crush, but that said. Yes, I do exactly what you said, only I batch sparge.

I recirc constantly and direct fire while recirculating to combat temp loss. I find a low flame under my MT and a high flow through my pump prevent scorching and yield a very quick (5 minutes or less for up to 5-6 degrees change) mash temp change. I mash out this way too. Mash in at regular temps, use the recirc/direct fire to manage mash temps, and while I'm heating the sparge water to 168, I'm also heating the mash to 168.

When I put in the sparge water, I stir and then try to keep it close to 168 with the direct fire method and recirc for 5-10 minutes to reset the bed. Then I take the 2nd runnings.

That with a good crush yields me about 75% efficiency, and is fairly consistent.

 

[jm43654]

jbaysurfer, thanks for the reply, it really helped and tells me I am on the right track. I do have a couple of questions since it sounds like we are brewing in a similar fashion.
How long do you typically hold your grain in the mash tun after mash in at 154 degrees?
Do you recirc water in your mash tun for first runnings prior to draining?
At what point do you typically mash out first runnings and then drain?
What ratio of water to grain are you typically using?
Have you ever thought about a rims tube rather than direct fire.
I'll post some pics of my system and would like to see yours.

Thanks again

 

[jbaysurfer]

jbaysurfer, thanks for the reply, it really helped and tells me I am on the right track. I do have a couple of questions since it sounds like we are brewing in a similar fashion.
How long do you typically hold your grain in the mash tun after mash in at 154 degrees?

Generally speaking, if the grainbill is over 15lbs for a 5-6G batch, I'll do a 90 minute mash. If it's less than that, I'll do a 60min. mash. By the time I'm done sparging it takes 90min or so.

Do you recirc water in your mash tun for first runnings prior to draining?

Absolutely. I generally recirc from the outset, while stirring etc and then once I'm satisfied with the mash temp, I'll shut the pump and burner (if it's on) off and cover it up and it'll hold temp pretty well until about 10 minutes before draining the Tun....(continued below)

At what point do you typically mash out first runnings and then drain?

.....then I'll fire the pump and burner, and NOT stir while I heat the wort to 168F (takes about 10minutes) and then turn off the burner and drain the Tun.

What ratio of water to grain are you typically using?

I get better efficiency with a thinner grist, 1.3-1.35Q/lb. I have a 10G Mash Tun so that affords me the extra space for a thinner grist in doing my 5-6G batches. If the calculations call for more then 5G of sparge water (usually the case), I'll split the batch sparge into two steps. Takes extra time, but I find it increases extraction.

Have you ever thought about a rims tube rather than direct fire.

I've thought very seriously about it. Then I got a 25' copper coil and soldered some hose barbs onto it and started using it as a HERMS coil in my HLT, but I didn't find it to be any faster in adjusting mash temps then just firing the burner and running the recirc pump. Essentially a direct fire with a pump IS a RIMS, because you're recirculating the wort across a heat source, it's just not an electric element in this case. I keep my herms coil for when I want to get fancy and do step mashes, but I bet I could do them just as well without it. I do use it in the HLT with ice water when I'm cooling a lager to pitch temps though.

I'll post some pics of my system and would like to see yours.

Took some pics last night while brewing a Brown Ale:

This is just after the last sparge, while the BK is heating up to a boil. Mash tun is on the upper tier, BK on the lower. When I'm still mashing, the HLT is on the lower, and the BK sits on a step thing (I think that's the technical term) until I'm done with the HLT, then I swap them. Sometimes if time is of the essence, or I'm trying to do a double batch, I'll get out my 3rd burner (bayou SQ14 burner) and put the BK on that one. You'll notice I have two pumps, but I still batch sparge. My efficiency is great, I'm comfortable with the process, and I've been getting great results.

My wort return is nothing more then a silicone hose that I aim toward the wall of the MT to diffuse the flow. Copper wire holds the tube in place. I've found with thinner grists it's harder to get the tube to "float" on top of the grainbed and not tunnel. Low tech but effective. I came up with this after realizing that all the wort return solutions out there presented both cost and their own sets of issues to deal with. This is also the technique I use for whirlpooling at the end of the boil, which, in conjunction with my 50' IC, cools the wort quite quickly and allows me to really milk those flame out additions for aroma.

 

[jm43654]

Thanks for the help, here are some pics

 

[jbaysurfer]

^Whole other level! Nice. we have the same cam lock connectors I see. A custom stand is my next project/purchase. I'm just wary of spending more time on my projects then I do on brewing. Wish I knew how to weld already, but I think I'll try to find a welder and pay him for his labor, possibly in beer

Edit: Can you explain to me how that 3 way valve is routing? I can see that one outlet goes to one pump, but I can't see the other one..does it go to the other pump?

 

[jm43654]

Hey, I didn't know much about welding either. I bought a cheap welder $169 and metal at the local supply store. I did all the welding on a flat concrete floor using a carpenters square.
I metal chop saw is also necessary

I took out the three way valves, they were a pain and now switch out hoses rather than try and direct everything through it's own hose.
One pump for HLT to MT and one pump from MT to brew kettle and brew kettle to therminator.

 

[jm43654]

It was definitely the crush, I achieved almost 78% efficiency on this batch

60 minute mash with 15 minute mash out at 168
30 minute batch sparge with 5 minute mash out

Anxious to taste it

 

[jbaysurfer]

It was definitely the crush, I achieved almost 78% efficiency on this batch

60 minute mash with 15 minute mash out at 168
30 minute batch sparge with 5 minute mash out

Anxious to taste it

Nice. The right crush is so important. I see the mash out worked really well too. Stoked.

 

[captgus]

I bet your efficiency problem IS in your crush, but that said. Yes, I do exactly what you said, only I batch sparge.

I recirc constantly and direct fire while recirculating to combat temp loss. I find a low flame under my MT and a high flow through my pump prevent scorching and yield a very quick (5 minutes or less for up to 5-6 degrees change) mash temp change. I mash out this way too. Mash in at regular temps, use the recirc/direct fire to manage mash temps, and while I'm heating the sparge water to 168, I'm also heating the mash to 168.

When I put in the sparge water, I stir and then try to keep it close to 168 with the direct fire method and recirc for 5-10 minutes to reset the bed. Then I take the 2nd runnings.

That with a good crush yields me about 75% efficiency, and is fairly consistent.

I dumped my igloo cooler mash tun and have since been dealing with the same issue. I found that wrapping my mash tun a few times with Reflectix has minimized the temp loss. Since adding the Reflectix, I only loose a few degrees over the course of a 60 minute mash. Be that as it may, I was concerned that continually recirculating with a 1 gallon pitcher would extract too many tannins when it came to raising temps to mash out using direct fire but it's good to know that may not be the case.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I dumped my igloo cooler mash tun and have since been dealing with the same issue. I found that wrapping my mash tun a few times with Reflectix has minimized the temp loss. Since adding the Reflectix, I only loose a few degrees over the course of a 60 minute mash. Be that as it may, I was concerned that continually recirculating with a 1 gallon pitcher would extract too many tannins when it came to raising temps to mash out using direct fire but it's good to know that may not be the case.

There's plenty smarter here then I am, but I have heard others say this about constant recirc (I don't constantly recirc even though I said it in that post, I just recirc it well until I hit my temp then shut down, fire the pump back up when I need a boost, or to mash out), and I'm not sure there's any science to it. I think most tannin issues have to do with mashing too long, oversparging (fly), and water chemistry. Even overheating (which I've heard is a cause for tannin extraction) doesn't make sense to me since decoction has been going on for centuries and is still a widely practiced technique.

 

[captgus]

That's similar to what I have been forced to do. Since there is almost 2 gallons of dead space under the false bottom of my mash tun, I have to recirculate that amount under, to keep it from boiling and heat the grain bed above. It sounds like, at this point, I just need to fine tune the process a bit and perhaps when needing to add direct fire, do so with a lower flame.

 

[grainbill]

you got it right, I run mine through my counter flow chiller, but use hot water instead of cold.
I can keep the mash at a constant temp and am able to raise the temp with out spikes...