Quick LoDO Trifecta question

[Brooothru]

Quick question. Well, actually two quick questions.

Been spending quality time on the German Brewing site looking to modify and further refine my LoDO techniques and decided to use the "trifecta" in my next brew session. I read and reread all the info I came across regarding Brew Tan B, and finally got a couple of ounces from Great Fermentations. I've been using NaMeta in mash water and also keg purging for awhile, and I have ascorbic acid on hand.

What I want to know: #1) is the 45%/45%/10% ratio of Meta : ascorbic : BrewTan still considered the optimum blend, and #2) are the percentage values expressed in grams/ounces as opposed to molecular weights [assuming, 'yes'].

Finally, dosing. Alright, that's three.

I've been dosing 0.65 grams of Meta to pretreat 32 liters strike water (after previously yeast oxygen scavenging the water). How much trifecta should I add for a 32l mash? Since my mash tun, mash cap, kettle, chiller and fermenter are all stainless steel, then chelation isn't an issue. Should I still dose the kettle before fining and knock out [thinking, yes] , and if so, how much. Ok, that"s four.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. This low oxygen brewing is measurably upping my game and it's got me looking to make even more improvements.

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

It's best to dose each element optimally on its own, and not look to a ratio between them. 45/45/10 is the composition of the commercial product Antioxin SBT, but those who use it (not sold to homebrewers, but early on some people got hold of some) generally add more BrewTan B to bring it up to the manufacturer's recommended usage. Dose your Meta as you see fit, and match that quantity for the ascorbic acid. Then dose BTB at the recommended rate, usually ~0.06g/L (based on the full volume of mash + sparge, if you sparge.) If you sparge, just use a small amount (5-10ppm) of Meta only in the sparge water. The residual BTB and AA from the mash will carry over.

BrewTan B has many benefits beyond chelation, so go ahead and use it even if you're all stainless and using RO water.

 

[Brooothru]

It's best to dose each element optimally on its own, and not look to a ratio between them. 45/45/10 is the composition of the commercial product Antioxin SBT, but those who use it (not sold to homebrewers, but early on some people got hold of some.) generally add more BrewTan B to bring it up to the manufacturer's recommended usage. Dose your Meta as you see fit, and match that quantity for the ascorbic acid. Then dose BTB at the recommended rate, usually ~0.06g/L (based on the full volume of mash + sparge, if you sparge.) If you sparge, just use a small amount (5-10ppm) of Meta only in the sparge water. The residual BTB and AA from the mash will carry over.

BrewTan B has many benefits beyond chelation, so go ahead and use it even if you're all stainless and using RO water.

Thanks for the reply. I didn't realize that Antitoxin SBT was not BTB. I've seen BTB on the White Labs website and assumed that it was the same formulary that is available retail from Great Fermentations, who sell in 1 oz packets under their own labeling. Good to know they're not the same, or at least the same concentration.

I had seen the 0.06 gr/l dosing for BTB but wasn't sure if that was up to date with current best practices. Since chelation is less a concern for me (SS equipment, no 'metal' issues in my water report), would lesser dosing be appropriate? My goals in using BTB are less about oxygen sequestration and more focused on long term stability and clarity.

Brooo Brother

 

[Brooothru]

It's best to dose each element optimally on its own, and not look to a ratio between them. 45/45/10 is the composition of the commercial product Antioxin SBT, but those who use it (not sold to homebrewers, but early on some people got hold of some) generally add more BrewTan B to bring it up to the manufacturer's recommended usage. Dose your Meta as you see fit, and match that quantity for the ascorbic acid. Then dose BTB at the recommended rate, usually ~0.06g/L (based on the full volume of mash + sparge, if you sparge.) If you sparge, just use a small amount (5-10ppm) of Meta only in the sparge water. The residual BTB and AA from the mash will carry over.

BrewTan B has many benefits beyond chelation, so go ahead and use it even if you're all stainless and using RO water.

OK. So now I'm really getting confused.

I revisited the Brew Tan B product info page on the Wyeast (not White Labs) website to find they recommend dosing BTB at a rate of 8 grams per barrel for the mash and 5 grams per barrel for the boil (note: 1 bbl = 1.17hL). So assuming proportional scaling I get:

5gr/hL = 5,000mg/117L = 42mg/L = 42 ppm
8gr/hL = 8,000mg/117L = 68mg/L = 68 ppm

The German Brewing forum (LOB) says to target 20-30 ppm Brew Tan B, so I'm guessing they roughly halve the Wyeast values. But then I was examining the example 5 gallon batch recipe on the LOB website for a Helles (Jan. 23, 2020 "Wort Study #1", in BeerSmith format) which clearly shows 2 additions of 2.56 grams of BTB, one in the mash and one in the boil which comes out to:

2.56gr/18.93L = 135mg/L = 135 ppm

That comes out to 270 ppm in a 5 gallon batch, not even taking into consideration their 0.38 gram addition of Antioxin SBT which is 10% Brew Tan B. Now when it comes to math I'm the first to admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed (more accurately described as a "chainsaw living in a micrometer world"), but it seems like a lot of BTB based on the Wyeast dosing instructions. Will @Die_Beerery or another of the LoDO gurus weigh in and point out where my logical or mathematical errors lie? Please?

I've also run into some other inconsistencies, though not with the LOB processes and procedures. The recommended dosing levels I've seen on retail commercial websites who sell BTB say to add ¼ tsp to a 5 gallon batch. But when I measure ¼ tsp of BTB on my digital gram scale (accurate to 3 significant decimals) it comes up 0.61 grams {or: (0.61 gr/18.93L) x 1,000 = 32.2 mg/L = 32 ppm}.

So I keep coming up with three widely varying amounts of BTB dosing. Do I apply the Wyeast 5 gr/hL (i.e., 42 mg/L) the ¼ tsp (i.e., 32 mg/L), the 'Helles' recipe 135 mg/L x 2, or the 'recommended' 0.06 gr/L full volume (in my case 9 gallons/34.1L; i.e., 18 mg/L). They all differ, but in practical terms how much do they differ "significantly"? The only real outlier seems to be the 'Helles' recipe from the LOB website at ~270 mg/L total. It just seems that there should be some consensus for consistent, accurate dosing whether in grams per liter or teaspoons per gallon. But after more than a few hours of trying to suss out the solution I'm stuck. Please help my dinosaur brain find resolution to this perplexing (at least for me) problem so I can go forth in peaceful brewing, confident that I'm not ruining my beer nor risking poisoning my friends and family.

Many thanks,

Brooo Brother

 

[Robert65]

Ajinomoto's (the manufacturer) recommendation has been 2-6 g/hL. I just looked and the latest version of their data sheet has revised that to 1.5-4 g/hL. The most detailed study I'm aware of (Withouck, et al., paper linked in resources on the blob site) used doses of 5 and 10 g/hL. I have good results at 6g/hL, the recommendation of the US sales reps. So there. Maybe look at those resources and see if it helps you. And experiment to see what works.

 

[Brooothru]

Ajinomoto's (the manufacturer) recommendation has been 2-6 g/hL. I just looked and the latest version of their data sheet has revised that to 1.5-4 g/hL. The most detailed study I'm aware of (Withouck, et al., paper linked in resources on the blob site) used doses of 5 and 10 g/hL. I have good results at 6g/hL, the recommendation of the US sales reps. So there. Maybe look at those resources and see if it helps you. And experiment to see what works.

Will do, and thanks for the references. They all seem to bracket most of the sources I'd found, excepting the 'Helles' recipe from the latest LOB blog post article. I'm hoping @Die_Beerery sees this thread and can offer some clarity. At this point I think the recipe must be in error since it appears to be an outlier. But that was what they used as their base brew in the study unless the pilot batch volume was different and there was a transcription error in entering a 5 gallon batch size into BeerSmith.

Experimentation and some trial and error are what I really enjoy about this hobby. But I also hope to avoid repeatedly inventing the wheel, when possible.

Brooo Brother

 

[Brooothru]

I have good results at 6g/hL, the recommendation of the US sales reps.

After going over my notes and a day and a half of hen scratches on a legal pad, I see my 0.61 gram weight of ¼ oz BTB/ 5 gallons (32.2 ppm) is slightly higher than the current LOB recommendation of 20-30 ppm, and the 6g/hL Ajinomoto rep's recommendation comes in higher still at 51 ppm. However, the BTB page at Wyeast suggests a mash dosing of 8g/hL and 5g/hL boil dosing for a total of 13g/hL or 111 ppm, though presumedly much of the mash addition is left behind in the grain bed. I'm still struggling to get my head around how to make an apples to apples comparison since Antioxin SBT is only 10% BTB, and how much the 90% NaMeta/ascorbic acid are contributing to de-oxygenation, as well as how to quantify it.

I'm leaning towards halving my NaMeta treatment to 0.30 grams per 9 gallons, matching that with 0.30 grams ascorbic, and adding 1.75 grams BTB in the mash (i.e., the BTB gets dosed at the rate of 6g/hL, the Meta gets dosed at approximately half of what I currently dose my 9 gallon total water, and I match the Meta dose with an equal dose of ascorbic acid). I'll dose another 1.75 grams BTB in the boil (<5 minutes before knock out) just before Whirlfloc. The BTB additions are about 65% of the total the LOB 'Helles' recipe totals, but about equal to the 6g/hL dosing recommendation. And the Meta/ascorbic mix total is about equal to what my normal Meta addition would be for a batch. My assumption (hope) is that much if not most of the BTB in the mash will stay there or evaporate/dissipate in the boil. The late boil addition should carry over enough BTB to give ongoing active protection during whirlpool, hopstand and transfer to the fermenter, at least until active fermentation begins.

So I guess I have what I think looks like a solid plan, or at least a start at a plan. I don't see any glaring mistakes or hazardous missteps, but if anyone does, please speak up.

Brooo Brother

 

[Die_Beerery]

Will do, and thanks for the references. They all seem to bracket most of the sources I'd found, excepting the 'Helles' recipe from the latest LOB blog post article. I'm hoping @Die_Beerery sees this thread and can offer some clarity. At this point I think the recipe must be in error since it appears to be an outlier. But that was what they used as their base brew in the study unless the pilot batch volume was different and there was a transcription error in entering a 5 gallon batch size into BeerSmith.

Experimentation and some trial and error are what I really enjoy about this hobby. But I also hope to avoid repeatedly inventing the wheel, when possible.

Brooo Brother

Misprint.

 

[Brooothru]

Misprint.

I'm assuming then that the reference to 2.56 grams BTB (x2) in the recipe was incorrect. Would my plan to use 1.75 grams in the mash (along with smaller doses of Meta and ascorbic) and an additional dosing of 1.75 grams BTB before finings in the kettle be appropriate as a starting point for a 5 gallon batch (starting water volume 34L)? I looking for a reference point from which to begin testing pilot batches without over-dosing additions but not under-dosing to the point of inadequately de-oxygenating the wort.

Brooo Brother