Questions upgrading to a RIMS setup

[JayMac]

Hey guys and gals,

I have run into quite a bit of trouble with inconsistent and fluctuating mash temps, cloudy wort after lautering, and properly a achieving mash out temps. This has pushed me to at least design my RIMS setup and source all of the parts I need.

I have a few questions to start me on my way. First of all, I've seen a lot of people putting elbows on their QD/camlocks hoses which attach to their pumps to help prevent flow restrictions. Is it necessary to have the elbow on both ends? Or will a hose barb suffice for the input and output to the pump?

Next, I assume you want the outlet of the pump to be vertical and upwards, correct?

Is there any benefit to buying a 240V element and running it at 120V? It seems inefficient as you only get quarter of the power. If 120V is all that's available to me, is 2000W, 120v likely my best option?

Are ball valves only required on the pump outlet, and the outlet of each kettle? (I.e no ball valves are required for the kettle returns or on the RIMS tube itself?)

That should be enough for me to completely understand the mechanical parts and operation of a RIMS setup, and I've already started looking at the electrical diagrams to prepare myself for the control box wiring. I'll be posting back once I've reached that point.

Thanks for your help,
Jay

 

[MalFet]

Hey guys and gals,

I have run into quite a bit of trouble with inconsistent and fluctuating mash temps, cloudy wort after lautering, and properly a achieving mash out temps. This has pushed me to at least design my RINS setup and source all of the parts I need.
I have a few questions to start me on my way. First of all, I've seen a lot of people putting elbows on their QD/camlocks hoses which attach to their pumps. Is it necessary to have the elbow on both ends? Or will a hose barb suffice for the input and output to the pump?

Sure. Make sure you use a worm clamp. Having a hose pop off while chugging scaldingly hot liquid is unfun™.

Next, I assume you want the outlet of the pump to be vertical and upwards, correct?

Doesn't really matter. Some people find it easier to get the pump primed if it is vertical.

Is there any benefit to buying a 240V element and running it at 120V? It seems inefficient as you only get quarter of the power. If 120V is all that's available to me, is 2000W, 120v likely my best option?

Doesn't matter. The element is just a resistor. Whether it's nominally listed at 240V or 120V doesn't make a difference. Just make sure your house circuit can handle whatever you buy.

Are ball valves only required on the pump outlet, and the outlet of each kettle? (I.e no ball valves are required for the kettle returns or on the RIMS tube itself)

One ball valve coming out of your kettle and another coming out of your pump is a standard and sufficient setup.

Good luck!

 

[JayMac]

Thanks for the quick reply!


Yeah, I wouldn't ever use a hose without a secured clamp, that's just asking for trouble. I had a close call with stream spraying out of my immersion chiller after accidentally forgetting to empty the water inside from the previous time I brewed.

So just to confirm, is it highly recommended to have the elbows on both sides of the pump transfer hose? Or have you/others found that using a hose barb on the pump ends sufficient?

I shouldn't be concerned about scorching with the 2000W element as long as I don't restrict the recirculating flow too much, right? That's usually more of a concern for the people using 4500-5500W elements?

Thanks again!

 

[AnOldUR]

I shouldn't be concerned about scorching with the 2000W element as long as I don't restrict the recirculating flow too much, right?

Depends on watt density. Look for LWD or better yet ULWD to be safe.

 

[MalFet]

Thanks for the quick reply!


Yeah, I wouldn't ever use a hose without a secured clamp, that's just asking for trouble. I had a close call with stream spraying out of my immersion chiller after accidentally forgetting to empty the water inside from the previous time I brewed.

So just to confirm, is it highly recommended to have the elbows on both sides? Or have you/others found that using a hose barb on the pump ends sufficient?

I shouldn't be concerned about scorching with the 2000W element as long as I don't restrict the recirculating flow, right? That's usually more of a concern for the people using 4500-5500W elements?

Thanks again!

I don't really know what elbows would do for something like this. I've only ever had barbs/camlocks.

2000W will definitely scorch if you let it run dry, so you need to make sure your recirculation doesn't jam up.

 

[JayMac]

Depends on watt density. Look for LWD or better yet ULWD to be safe.

So the power rating isn't necessarily what I should be worried about, but the density? I assume when the product reports LWD it's due to a similar power rating for a longer element?

I've seen people use elbows for the sole reason that having the hose too vertical after the hose barb can result in a kink

 

[JayMac]

Ok, so I've been looking at what electrical components I'll be running, and it seems that I'll need to do a little more work than I had expected.

If I used a 2000W element at 120V, that will draw 2000W/120V= 16.7A. The chugger pump I'm looking at pulls 1.3A. The only other electrical components I plan on using are switches, indicator lights, and probably a kill switch - none of which draw significant current.

So that brings me to 18A, which exceeds the standard 15A circuit in my house. I'm no electrician (and trust me, my electrical work WILL be verified by an electrician), but I think this means I will need to install my own GFCI breaker and outlet in my house which supports 20A (maybe 30A as I plan on later upgrading to a more heavily automated system with another pump).

Am I right with this assumption? Or is there a way to use one of the 15A outlets that already exists in my house? (maybe use a 1500W, 120V element?)

Thanks again, and sorry for my newby questions!

 

[MalFet]

Ok, so I've been looking at what electrical components I'll be running, and it seems that I'll need to do a little more work than I had expected.

If I used a 2000W element at 120V, that will draw 2000W/120V= 16.7A. The chugger pump I'm looking at pulls 1.3A. The only other electrical components I plan on using are switches, indicator lights, and probably a kill switch - none of which draw significant current.

So that brings me to 18A, which exceeds the standard 15A circuit in my house. I'm no electrician (and trust me, my electrical work WILL be verified by an electrician), but I think this means I will need to install my own GFCI breaker and outlet in my house which supports 20A (maybe 30A as I plan on later upgrading to a more heavily automated system with another pump).

Am I right with this assumption? Or is there a way to use one of the 15A outlets that already exists in my house? (maybe use a 1500W, 120V element?)

Thanks again, and sorry for my newby questions!

I use a 1500W element and a march pump on a single 15A circuit without any trouble. You can't run any other "big" appliances on the circuit at the same time, but it works fine.

 

[JayMac]

I use a 1500W element and a march pump on a single 15A circuit without any trouble. You can't run any other "big" appliances on the circuit at the same time, but it works fine.

I guess I'll need to make sure that the outdoor outlets are 1. GFCI outlets and 2. not in the same circuit as the kitchen!

MalFet, How does your 1500W element fair when heating up to mashout temps, and have you ever used it with any success for step mashes? What temp controller are you using?

Thanks for your input

 

[MalFet]

I guess I'll need to make sure that the outdoor outlets are 1. GFCI outlets and 2. not in the same circuit as the kitchen!

MalFet, How does your 1500W element fair when heating up to mashout temps, and have you ever used it with any success for step mashes? What temp controller are you using?

Thanks for your input

Glad to help!

It's hard to say, because my system uses direct fire also, so I always use that when I step. I'd guess around a degree a minute. That's not too speedy, but it works in a pinch.

 

[JayMac]

Well, luckily this RIMS system will start out on a 5 gal system, so my step mashes will be faster than yours!

However, once I upgrade to a single tier system, I guess I'll need to throw a burner under my MLT, or get a more powerful element and create my own circuit to run my system.

I assume the STC-1000 I use for my kegerator probably won't be very good for maintaining a mash temp (I've noticed it overshoots quite a lot). Does anyone have any suggestions? The Johnson controllers are a little bulky for what I want to build.

 

[MalFet]

Well, luckily this RIMS system will start out on a 5 gal system, so my step mashes will be faster than yours!

However, once I upgrade to a single tier system, I guess I'll need to throw a burner under my MLT, or get a more powerful element and create my own circuit to run my system.

I assume the STC-1000 I use for my kegerator probably won't be very good for maintaining a mash temp (I've noticed it overshoots quite a lot). Does anyone have any suggestions? The Johnson controllers are a little bulky for what I want to build.

I use an Auber PID with a solid state relay. I recommend it highly, but it requires a bit of wiring to use. There are tons of great build threads on here.

 

[JayMac]

I use an Auber PID with a solid state relay. I recommend it highly, but it requires a bit of wiring to use. There are tons of great build threads on here.

I've gone through a ton of the build threads, I now completely understand the electrical system. I was just hoping to grab another opinion when asking you specific questions! I too will be buying most of my electronics from auber.

I just have one more question (well, for now at least). I saw someone using a setup similar to what I hope to use (240V 4500W element running at 120V). It's not the same set up but it's pulling similar amperage. My question is, why would you use a 40A SSR, when a 25A SSR is more than enough? And is a heat sink absolutely necessary?

Thanks for all your help,
Jay

 

[MalFet]

I've gone through a ton of the build threads, I now completely understand the electrical system. I was just hoping to grab another opinion when asking you specific questions! I too will be buying most of my electronics from auber.

I just have one more question (well, for now at least). I saw someone using a setup similar to what I hope to use (240V 4500W element running at 120V). It's not the same set up but it's pulling similar amperage. My question is, why would you use a 40A SSR, when a 25A SSR is more than enough? Or am I missing something.

Thanks for all your help,
Jay

No reason I can think of, other than the ability to up-power the element later.

 

[JayMac]

Well, I'm back with yet another question!

I am comfortable with wiring, as most times I'm overseen by my electrical engineer friends/workers. I can read a diagram and wire up as it shows, but I struggle trying to create my own (I believe that's common though). For all of the other people out there who have limited electrical knowledge (but enough so that they know how to safely handle and work with electronics!) I will be including pictures of my build, where I bought the parts, why the parts are used, their price, how I connected them, alternative ways, and how to complete the wiring. I hope this will be a valuable source for someone wanting to complete their RIMS set up.

But on to my questions! Please let me know if ANYTHING I say is incorrect. Some of these questions are related to my build, but some are just to confirm I understand the electronic operation of different devices. Thank you

1. Switches: If I am to use a switch which turns on the pump, and turns on a light (light is only on while the pump is on-green light) then I will use a DPST switch, correct? one pole goes to the light, the other to the pump (this is so elementary, but I really don't want to pay $4 for something I can't use!). Is this essentially equivalent to a SPST, but soldering both the pump and light connections to the only pole? (Don't worry, I only use female connectors anyways!). Alternatively, could I buy a maintained selector switch (two NO) and connect the pump and light connections to the NO connections? Turning the knob would then complete the circuit, turning the pump and light on.

2. For enclosing the heating element wires: will one of the radioshack project enclosures (3x2x1") with the aluminum lid be safe when connecting to the bottom threading of the heating element? By safe, I'm talking about whether it will be able to withstand the heat that will be transferred from the element to the project box. I would obviously silicone the interior of the box to avoid any water leaking inside. I understand this will make the grounding difficult, but I don't have great access to a sealed, affordable metal enclosure (I'm in Canada, so I need to choose as few companies as possible to ship from). I'm then hoping to use a strain relief to attach the power cord to the project box, and have the male end connect into my GFCI outlet that I will build into my control box.

3. Power connections: I have seen many people use various IEC320 and NEMA power connectors, and I was wondering why would you use one over the other? I was planning on using the C13/C14 for the power to my control box from the wall outlet, but wasn't sure if there is a specific male connector I should use for my heating element. Thoughts?

Thanks so much for the help, I appreciate your patience! I just want to make sure that everything I do is as safe as possible. I starting working around electronics a lot with a snowmobile retrofitting project, and I've learned how important electrical safety is!

 

[MalFet]

1. Switches: If I am to use a switch which turns on the pump, and turns on a light (light is only on while the pump is on-green light) then I will use a DPST switch, correct? one pole goes to the light, the other to the pump (this is so elementary, but I really don't want to pay $4 for something I can't use!). Is this essentially equivalent to a SPST, but soldering both the pump and light connections to the only pole? (Don't worry, I only use female connectors anyways!). Alternatively, could I buy a maintained selector switch (two NO) and connect the pump and light connections to the NO connections? Turning the knob would then complete the circuit, turning the pump and light on.

Specific wiring questions start to get above my pay grade, but your switches don't need to be so complicated as all that. The indicator lights can just be wired in parallel with your load/outlet. Some people like to use a DP switch to make sure that the element is never on while the pump is off, which is smart. Take a look at the diagram in the fourth post here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/one-last-look-rims-box-wiring-diagram-400765/

2. For enclosing the heating element wires: will one of the radioshack project enclosures (3x2x1") with the aluminum lid be safe when connecting to the bottom threading of the heating element? By safe, I'm talking about whether it will be able to withstand the heat that will be transferred from the element to the project box. I would obviously silicone the interior of the box to avoid any water leaking inside. I understand this will make the grounding difficult, but I don't have great access to a sealed, affordable metal enclosure (I'm in Canada, so I need to choose as few companies as possible to ship from). I'm then hoping to use a strain relief to attach the power cord to the project box, and have the male end connect into my GFCI outlet that I will build into my control box.

Your element should never get that hot...ideally, it shouldn't really ever go above your target temperatures. That said, I'd be a bit reluctant to use a plastic enclosure unless I knew it was heat resistant. Most people are using standard all-weather gang boxes for this. It's been a while since I've gone hardware shopping in Canada, but I've got to imagine these are readily available.

3. Power connections: I have seen many people use various IEC320 and NEMA power connectors, and I was wondering why would you use one over the other? I was planning on using the C13/C14 for the power to my control box from the wall outlet, but wasn't sure if there is a specific male connector I should use for my heating element. Thoughts?

I just use a C13/C14. I believe the NEMA connectors are necessary to keep code with higher amperage circuits, but that shouldn't be an issue here. Obviously you want to make sure none of your connections risk significant water (in addition to the GFCI).

Glad to hear it's coming along!

 

[JayMac]

Specific wiring questions start to get above my pay grade, but your switches don't need to be so complicated as all that. The indicator lights can just be wired in parallel with your load/outlet. Some people like to use a DP switch to make sure that the element is never on while the pump is off, which is smart. Take a look at the diagram in the fourth post here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/one-last-look-rims-box-wiring-diagram-400765/



Your element should never get that hot...ideally, it shouldn't really ever go above your target temperatures. That said, I'd be a bit reluctant to use a plastic enclosure unless I knew it was heat resistant. Most people are using standard all-weather gang boxes for this. It's been a while since I've gone hardware shopping in Canada, but I've got to imagine these are readily available.



I just use a C13/C14. I believe the NEMA connectors are necessary to keep code with higher amperage circuits, but that shouldn't be an issue here. Obviously you want to make sure none of your connections risk significant water (in addition to the GFCI).

Glad to hear it's coming along!

I even looked at that thread, and didn't notice how useful it was! Thanks for pointing that out for me.

My only question is: why isn't the element switch place upstream of the SSR? The way it's drawn, it'll switch even when the element switch isn't turned to the ON position. Although this still won't allow the element to turn on, it'll still cycle the SSR unnecessarily. However, I assume adding a few more cycles onto the relay is going to have a near negligible effect on it's lifetime.

I can easily get a small gang box, I just think the black plastic ones look nicer

 

[MalFet]

I even looked at that thread, and didn't notice how useful it was! Thanks for pointing that out for me.

My only question is: why isn't the element switch place upstream of the SSR? The way it's drawn, it'll switch even when the element switch isn't turned to the ON position. Although this still won't allow the element to turn on, it'll still cycle the SSR unnecessarily. However, I assume adding a few more cycles onto the relay is going to have a near negligible effect on it's lifetime.

I can easily get a small gang box, I just think the black plastic ones look nicer

That's a good question. I'm not sure what the advantages or disadvantages would be.

 

[JayMac]

That's a good question. I'm not sure what the advantages or disadvantages would be.

Now that I think about it, the PID cycles the SSR, so regardless of where the switch is, the SSR will cycle.

I'm on to what I believe are my last questions. Once they are answered, I'm going to post my electrical diagram, and physical set up to make sure there is no electrical concerns, and that everything is done properly. Here we go:

1.What wire gauge are people using for their 120V 15A setup? When I looked it up, no wire above 14 gauge should be used, as 16 gauge wire is rated for 13A and 14 gauge is rated for 17A. However, I doubt people are using anything below 16 gauge for their wiring, as this would be very difficult and space consuming. Can someone reassure me that I can use 16 Gauge for the power cables and control box wiring?

2. If something other than a device (such as dual row barrier strips orcoords) are rated at 20A and 330V, there will be no problem running 120V 15A through it, right? Are these usually maximum ratings?

3. The only cover for the gang boxes at Home Depot in Canada are steel plates. If I use this, and have in contact with the threads on the element, can I connect my ground to this plate?

4. Is a thermowell necessary? I am thinking about using an RTD with a QD Which is attached to a 1/2NTP thread, so the sensor can be easily detached and cleaned. Should I still get a thermowell?

Thanks again Malfet, you've answered basically all of my questions so far, much appreciated!!