Putting fermenter on a stir plate?
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The thought of a big stir plate for a fermentor to aerate the wort had crossed my mind before. Most likely when thinking about the cost of a tank, regulator, aeration stone and storing a big ol tank. One time investment sort of thing vs an on going expense. Also recall reading something that it does not take too much time for dissolved oxygen levels to drop. Maybe only use for a few hours not the whole fermentation. Would like to say I was drinking at the time but I think that could of been a sober thought. I ended up going the little red can approach.
OP
OP
MackerelQ
Well-Known Member
First off, I really appreciate the input and discussion- lots to chew on. Not sure I’m totally on board with the Brewlosophy hate though, but whatever to each their own.
Perhaps my question was too narrow or not well explained, but I simply just wanted to know if there were any positives or negatives to putting my fermenting wort on a stir plate. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I would hope my goal would be obvious in that I desire to affect the process in a positive way, either by speed, efficiency, improved quality, other? One of the things I would hope this idea would address would be to thwart slow, lazy fermentations by keeping the yeast moving and possibly more oxygenated.
I’ve already done some initial experiments with this idea. I have both a standard plastic bucket fermenter and an Ss Brewtech conical brew bucket.
I first put 5 gallons of water in the plastic bucket and placed it on my standard sized stir plate. Within a few minutes I had a small vortex. The next more challenging test was trying this out on my conical. With the right distance between the cone and the stir plate and the right size stir bar, once again success. Actually, the conical was a little better than the bucket since the cone kept the bar in place and made it harder to throw.
I plan to do some real world comparative tests with this process as soon as I can and will report back my findings.
Perhaps my question was too narrow or not well explained, but I simply just wanted to know if there were any positives or negatives to putting my fermenting wort on a stir plate. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I would hope my goal would be obvious in that I desire to affect the process in a positive way, either by speed, efficiency, improved quality, other? One of the things I would hope this idea would address would be to thwart slow, lazy fermentations by keeping the yeast moving and possibly more oxygenated.
I’ve already done some initial experiments with this idea. I have both a standard plastic bucket fermenter and an Ss Brewtech conical brew bucket.
I first put 5 gallons of water in the plastic bucket and placed it on my standard sized stir plate. Within a few minutes I had a small vortex. The next more challenging test was trying this out on my conical. With the right distance between the cone and the stir plate and the right size stir bar, once again success. Actually, the conical was a little better than the bucket since the cone kept the bar in place and made it harder to throw.
I plan to do some real world comparative tests with this process as soon as I can and will report back my findings.
It's not hate at all... The concern is that so many people throw it around as 'evidence' of something, and it's not. Take it for what it is and nothing more - Entertainment Value Only.
wrong. as i stated above there are commercial breweries that use agitation/recirc in their fermenters. so yes, that validates his concept.
and as far as homebrewers shaking their kegs, as i also noted above, its not likely to lead to the breakdown of the vegetal mass that was linked to astringency and polyphenols. i said you should make them aware of POSSIBLE side effects, not guaranteed effects.
no i dont recirc my hops on homebrew. never said i did. and a 5hp pump is obviously not for home use, is it? however since the publication of the paper there are plenty of folks with conicals these days, so i would expect somebody is doing this. at home. with a pump.
now how can i be sure of what im saying here? well if you want the source of this data, you can easily see the notes on astringency and polyphenols are right in the friggin opening abstract of the paper. i guess you didnt read it?
my experience is 10bbl vessels with 1.5hp pump on vfd. buddies across town have gone too hard, or for too long and told the tale. we based our SOP off their experiences.
I guess I'm too lazy and dont mind waiting on fermentation and think the dry hop utilization I've been getting is fine; though I have made these bigger... I'm not sure that the money I'd could potentially save on hops, if recirculating in the fermentor did in fact allow me to use less, would be worth the additional complexity in my process. At least not at my homebrew scale.
@MackerelQ: Sorry you haven't gotten the responses you'd hoped for but you're certainly getting a lot of interesting information, viewpoints etc.. In the end you wind up doing what works for you anyway. So, I'll follow this for sure and am looking forward to any conclusions you draw!
@MackerelQ: Sorry you haven't gotten the responses you'd hoped for but you're certainly getting a lot of interesting information, viewpoints etc.. In the end you wind up doing what works for you anyway. So, I'll follow this for sure and am looking forward to any conclusions you draw!
OP
OP
MackerelQ
Well-Known Member
Thanks, @Nagorg. My suspicion that nearly no one does this, but there’s no compelling reason not to is seeming to be be confirmed.
I have no problem breaking away from tradition and testing ideas that aren’t typically practiced on the home brew scale. I have a feeling it’s a question many people have asked themselves, but hardly any have tested.
I have no problem breaking away from tradition and testing ideas that aren’t typically practiced on the home brew scale. I have a feeling it’s a question many people have asked themselves, but hardly any have tested.
Disagreeing with popular things is considered hate by people that want to agree with popular things. I don't hate Brulosophy, but they certainly don't have many valid experiments. Do they have any valid experiments? Not sure. They do have an enthusiastic audience and sponsors.
No it doesn't. Professional scale and homebrew scale are not comparable in this context. Since you believe they are, please tell us how stirring a 5 gallon wort with a stir plate would be beneficial for homebrewers. Then explain why you didn't tell the OP what he wanted to hear with your first post.
In terms of 5 gallon fermentation, there are zero significant benefits for stir plating the fermenter. Recirculation of dry hops in a 10-400bbl fermenter is a different animal.
says who? you? because you are the expert? please state your expert qualifications.
and while you are at it, please explain why these techniques that go from commercial to homebrew are well known, well practiced, and effective-
water chemistry
low oxygen mash/kettle techniques ( a bit debateable for some i admit)
yeast nutrients
temp control of ferment
fermenting under pressure
dry hop recirculation
primary dry hopping
closed transfers under co2
fining instead of filtration
oxygen/air purging vessels
bulk aging in barrels
you know what? ignore the first half above.
read post 1. then post 10. then post 11.
OP asks Q. i answer Q. OP says thanks for the info.
WHOSE VILLAGE IS MISSING ITS IDIOT?
Very funny. The subject is using a stir plate in a homebrew fermenter. Your previous post that you have referred to here again as the basis for your 'argument' is not relevant in this context simply because other things pros do are beneficial for homebrewers. Scale matters.
Explain how using a stir plate in a 5-10 gallon homebrew set up is significantly beneficial. Good luck 10bbl brewer.
Explain how you ignore all evidence and statements contrary to your opinion while declaring your views as the definitve source on what works and what does not work for homebrewing. List your qualifications, both academic and brewing related, and cite your experimental data or published papers supporting your opinions. Lastly, present your data supporting your opinion regarding agitation during primary specifically in the sub-one barrel batch sizes that you are relying on argumentatively.
You do have data and proof right?
You still can't explain how using a stir plate in a 5-10 gallon homebrew set up is significantly beneficial. This is the whole point of the thread. Based on your commentary vigor and alleged 10bbl experience, it should be very easy to explain to us small batch brewers how a stir plate in the fermenter is worthwhile.
Instead, you are hung up on saying many things pro brewers do are good homebrew practices. No one is arguing that. However, this doesn't mean using a stir plate in 5-10 gallon batches is worth doing.
Now is your last chance to say why it is...
No, this is your chance to state how you definitively know it wont do anything. You are the contrarian here, not me. Ive pointed out numerous ways that brewing technique is copied from pro to homebtrew level with success. You have given zero proof that this case is different.
All you have is your uneducated and evidence-lacking opinion, which apparently all should accept because...... you said so?
Put up or shut up. Show us the goods. Or adnit the total lack of evidence for your statement.
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I have had English yeasts that needed rousing as they stopped too soon.
I opened and stirred with a sanitized whateverthehellwaslongenoughtoreach.
I too thought, albeit briefly, about stir bar. But for the limited number of times I wanted it, it was simpler to carefully stir. Some people talk of swirling the fermenter (fermentor?) daily with quick-floccing yeasts.
The shaken-not-sitrbarred folks had evidence of yeast shear stress, but I don't recall the specifics. I've yet to try that method, as I don't make starters to pitch at exactly high krausen because I overbuild and want to decant and save some.
I opened and stirred with a sanitized whateverthehellwaslongenoughtoreach.
I too thought, albeit briefly, about stir bar. But for the limited number of times I wanted it, it was simpler to carefully stir. Some people talk of swirling the fermenter (fermentor?) daily with quick-floccing yeasts.
The shaken-not-sitrbarred folks had evidence of yeast shear stress, but I don't recall the specifics. I've yet to try that method, as I don't make starters to pitch at exactly high krausen because I overbuild and want to decant and save some.
I see you were applying agitation/rousing of yeast in primary. I assume this was “5-10 gallon” batch size or similar?
Not sure what kind of fermenter or carboy you used, but if you had it on a lazy susan and could just give it a quick spin a few times a day would you have preferred that to opening it up and having to stick a whateverthehellwaslongenoughtoreach in there? That was the concept i originally had. Then i got cute and tried to automate the spin with a turntable, but i got lazy and abandoned it.
Agitation during fermentation; i.e. enable sufficient interaction between media and the 'bugs', is nothing new and there is a ton of papers and more general literature out there once you go beyond beer.
I have questioned myself if I should try it out or not and reminded myself that I never bothered shaking/stirring the fermentor. So, obviously it's not high on my priority list.
What I find strange in this thread is that the OP has not done any research, but gets upset already by post #5 that nobody "answers" the question while he himself doesn't bring anything to the table!
It's a public forum; everyone is free to contribute what they feel is relevant.
What an entitled generation of people are we breeding who knows nothing and demands that others have to spoon feed them for free. Even if you pay a consulting firm a lot of money you often don't get the simple answer you are hoping for.
Sorry for the rant, not meant personal - this is just another thread where it came up.
OP
OP
MackerelQ
Well-Known Member
@chris000, if there is indeed “a ton of papers”, could you please share some of these sources? I am very curious about this subject.
Regarding your statement that I did no research, I believe I stated that I performed what I felt was an exhaustive search on HBT for anyone posting on the subject. If that was not a sufficient amount of research, I apologize- I’ll run all my research efforts by you from now on before I ask a question here. I would hate to decrease the overall time it takes to get an answer by asking possible experts, but instead lavish in the super rewarding task of aimlessly scouring the interwebs for a morsel of arcane knowledge (ahem).
Yes, by post #5 the subject was (in my opinion) already going off the rails as these things often times do, but I wasn’t upset. What I do find very interesting is the phenomenon of the poster that has no knowledge on the subject, but for some reason still feels the need to respond. It would be like a gradeschool teacher asking a question of the class and little Billy jumping up and down with his hand raised and when called on he says, “I don’t know the answer at all”. Do people really need that much attention that they need to respond just to say they don’t know anything? ...and don’t say it doesn’t happen, because I’ve seen it time and time again.
So, yes it’s a public forum- and I’m also free to share that I believe certain things shared are irrelevant, which I believe some have concurred.
I don’t disagree with you about the “entitled generation”, but please direct your ire where it’s appropriate. You seem to imply that there was some sort of demand placed on the HBT community here by me asking an extremely simple question. I did not ask anyone for a 200 page thesis or voluminous research, I just wanted to know if anyone knows of any reason why this would be a good or bad idea.
Let’s key in on one word, however, “knows”. I have all sorts of unsubstantiated assumptions about the possible good and bad effects of this idea. I was really just hoping there was someone out there that had done it themselves and was willing to share their experience. I also find the other comments that others like large scale breweries do this helpful as well. At least that further strengthens my belief that this may not be a bad practice and could have some benefits.
Regarding your statement that I did no research, I believe I stated that I performed what I felt was an exhaustive search on HBT for anyone posting on the subject. If that was not a sufficient amount of research, I apologize- I’ll run all my research efforts by you from now on before I ask a question here. I would hate to decrease the overall time it takes to get an answer by asking possible experts, but instead lavish in the super rewarding task of aimlessly scouring the interwebs for a morsel of arcane knowledge (ahem).
Yes, by post #5 the subject was (in my opinion) already going off the rails as these things often times do, but I wasn’t upset. What I do find very interesting is the phenomenon of the poster that has no knowledge on the subject, but for some reason still feels the need to respond. It would be like a gradeschool teacher asking a question of the class and little Billy jumping up and down with his hand raised and when called on he says, “I don’t know the answer at all”. Do people really need that much attention that they need to respond just to say they don’t know anything? ...and don’t say it doesn’t happen, because I’ve seen it time and time again.
So, yes it’s a public forum- and I’m also free to share that I believe certain things shared are irrelevant, which I believe some have concurred.
I don’t disagree with you about the “entitled generation”, but please direct your ire where it’s appropriate. You seem to imply that there was some sort of demand placed on the HBT community here by me asking an extremely simple question. I did not ask anyone for a 200 page thesis or voluminous research, I just wanted to know if anyone knows of any reason why this would be a good or bad idea.
Let’s key in on one word, however, “knows”. I have all sorts of unsubstantiated assumptions about the possible good and bad effects of this idea. I was really just hoping there was someone out there that had done it themselves and was willing to share their experience. I also find the other comments that others like large scale breweries do this helpful as well. At least that further strengthens my belief that this may not be a bad practice and could have some benefits.
OP
OP
MackerelQ
Well-Known Member
MackerelQ, this was a rant and not meant personal as I stated. sorry, perhaps I should have been more clear. However, if anyone thinks that shoe fits, it's their choice if to put it on.
the difference between little billy and a forum is that little billy has to go to school, but nobody has to actively participate in a public forum. forums work based on collective knowledge. lurkers do not contribute and the more a person knows the less interest they have reading all kind of questions that don't matter to them.
so, in the end only people who are looking for the same information will read and are likely to contribute.
it's the nature of the beast and if anyone wants to run a thread like a classroom, as in your example, they better know much more than the rest of us to make this a successful undertaking
the difference between little billy and a forum is that little billy has to go to school, but nobody has to actively participate in a public forum. forums work based on collective knowledge. lurkers do not contribute and the more a person knows the less interest they have reading all kind of questions that don't matter to them.
so, in the end only people who are looking for the same information will read and are likely to contribute.
it's the nature of the beast and if anyone wants to run a thread like a classroom, as in your example, they better know much more than the rest of us to make this a successful undertaking
By those people responding, they are doing you a favor and bumping your thread, making it more likely that some expert might see it. Surely it takes you less time to skim through those posts than it does to discourage them.
In 6 years of brewing, I have never had a stuck fermentation. I have accomplished that by paying attention to nutrition and aeration up front and by purposefully avoiding lazy yeast strains. I have no expert experience with using a stirbar in a 5 gallon vessel but I do know it is sometimes a pain to get it going in a 2 liter vessel and I don't even see how you are going to be able to tell if it spinning through all that murk. There are better ways to accomplish what you want.[/user]
maybe you should consider that it is not rewarding for anyone to be shut down if they try to give someone their perspective (relevant or not), because you didn't bother doing your own legwork.
I know it's not the silver platter, but google "agitation" and "bioreactor", spend a couple of months reading and then feel the reward of lecturing us. I'll be the first one to sign up - for free of course!
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Yes 5g
Bucket, glass carboy, big mouth bubbler
I’ve not found spinning a vessel of mostly water does much stirring without having internally fixed vanes or something, but fixed vanes and lazy Susan appeals to me. Then I think of cleaning. Hm. I like the sanitized spoon method still.
the OP obviously can speak for himself, but i think you're being unfair. or at least not really thinking about his actual question.
the OP already posed the question- agitating during primary- pros/cons? which is essentially saying why would it be done, or avoided? so responses essentially coming back by asking "why would you do that?" are redundant and pointless. that's the OP's original question.
and if he was supposed to already have all the knowledge from countless papers, laboratory experience, and all the brewing books you can read then i would guess he wouldnt be asking a question, he'd be writing an article about it and reporting on it.
seems like you're angered that he had the nerve to ask questions to a subject he lacked knowledge of, which seems contrary to the spirit of these forums. if you cant ask the question here, then where?
to OP and anyone curious about his actual question- if i somehow remember where to find that presentation on the copenhagen(?) brewery with the wort spinner thingies i'll post the link. but i cannot for the life of me remember where i saw it. although i think there was a video clip in there that linked to youtube, if anyone wants to investigate.
other than that, im gonna get off this thread. need to get my ass back to work.
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MackerelQ
Well-Known Member
@SanPancho, I appreciate your support and understanding. Not sure why these discussions seem to get so incendiary... we’re making beer here, folks.
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yes, yes....but this is the internet!
appreciate your feedback, but please really think about below and previous actual statement as well that this was not specifically to the OP.
On another note, I did think of the topic for a minute or two why this isn't a big deal and remembered the old topic of yeast coating.
but since nobody asked, be sure I won't get started
VFblade
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Sorry I'm a little late to the party, I'm glad to see in not the only one who has this curiosity (I was actually looking at ways to do the experiment myself before I even thought of looking for established knowledge) and a little support for the OP I very much understand the curiosity and I think everyone here knows it's not "necessary" so responses saying as much similarly aren't "necessary" though I do support the idea of them being thread bumps.
On to the actual topic, I apologize I do not have the answer to the effects good or bad but as far as testing wouldn't one be able to cut a very small circular notch into the bucket and use one of the 4-way stir bars with nubs to make sure it wasn't thrown after a good speed was found?
My thoughts were to reincorporate any yeast that fell out and potentially speed up the fermenting process (true it's not "necessary" with patience but it would be something interesting to know)
@OP I noticed you mentioned doing some experiments with water to see if you could get it to stir, if you do end up experimenting with your beers to see if it has any effect can you let us know, good, bad, or indifferent it is all useful knowledge.
I may end up doing my own experiment in a few months to see what effects it has (obviously exact same batch split in half one stirred one not for a control with blind tasters), but if anyone else has done this I would be more than happy to learn about their experience to avoid pitfalls
On to the actual topic, I apologize I do not have the answer to the effects good or bad but as far as testing wouldn't one be able to cut a very small circular notch into the bucket and use one of the 4-way stir bars with nubs to make sure it wasn't thrown after a good speed was found?
My thoughts were to reincorporate any yeast that fell out and potentially speed up the fermenting process (true it's not "necessary" with patience but it would be something interesting to know)
@OP I noticed you mentioned doing some experiments with water to see if you could get it to stir, if you do end up experimenting with your beers to see if it has any effect can you let us know, good, bad, or indifferent it is all useful knowledge.
I may end up doing my own experiment in a few months to see what effects it has (obviously exact same batch split in half one stirred one not for a control with blind tasters), but if anyone else has done this I would be more than happy to learn about their experience to avoid pitfalls
Merak5
Member
The only commercial brewery I worked at that used agitation was to reduce temperature stratification in the vessel. One of the reasons I like using glass carboys is because I can see the swirling of the wort. Seems once fermentation starts there wouldn't be a need for artificial agitation as the yeasties take care of it themselves.
Your rude attitude and obvious ignorance in this context simply tells me you aren't worthy of my conversation. Have fun brewing 10bbl batches for someone else.
You could have said with your first post "I use a stir plate for my 8 gallon home brew and it's better because..." You didn't though because you clearly don't. You are simply hung up on the false concept that some pro brewers do things, therefore all the things they do are beneficial to all hombrewers.
OP
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MackerelQ
Well-Known Member
As an update, I have a theory and build write up on my site for my “Fermentation Spinner”
https://onemanssite.wordpress.com/2018/03/12/the-fermentation-spinner/
https://onemanssite.wordpress.com/2018/03/12/the-fermentation-spinner/
OP
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MackerelQ
Well-Known Member
Aww shucks, you’re just saying that. I figure if you’re going to do it, do it big. After all, brewing is my dream hobby. Only limited by time and money.
a man without a hobby is a man i dont trust.
well, once you get to brewing the results will speak for themselves. every once in a while white labs has a sale on QC testing. i forget the full list of things they test for aside from the big ones like ABV, IBU, etc but i vaguely remember VDKs being one, diacetyl maybe. have to look it up, but that would be one way to get some pretty solid data on a split batch of spin/no-spin.
well, once you get to brewing the results will speak for themselves. every once in a while white labs has a sale on QC testing. i forget the full list of things they test for aside from the big ones like ABV, IBU, etc but i vaguely remember VDKs being one, diacetyl maybe. have to look it up, but that would be one way to get some pretty solid data on a split batch of spin/no-spin.
OP
OP
MackerelQ
Well-Known Member
I dig it. I’ll have to look into that. Thanks again for your helpful input and information.
If there's a problem, it'll be protein shear, which will show up as attenuated or non-existent head...
Cheers!
Cheers!
