problems drying out a saison

[neomantra]

I brewed the following Saison recipe from AHA's Big Brew 2009:

http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/SaisonDuMont-Extract

It seems even in the recipe they knew it might get stuck at a higher gravity than preferred with the belgian yeast. Here's what it says about the yeast choice in the recipe:

"Two (2) packages Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison Yeast, or two (2) White Labs WLP550 Belgian Ale Yeast, or an appropriate yeast starter

NOTE: Saison should be a dry beer. If your attenuation is not enough, you may need to add a secondary yeast such as Champagne yeast (White Labs WPL 715, or Wyeast 4021) or an attenuative ale yeast (White Labs WLP 001, or Wyeast 1056) to achieve the correct attenuation. "

So my beer stopped bubbling after a few days and so I took a reading at the end of week 1. It was at 1.021. Not nearly dry enough for the style. So I made up a starter with some washed WLP 001 I had and dumped it in a couple days later. Swirled everything around in the carboy and waited. Now, another week later after adding the starter my gravity is *exactly* the same

I've been reading about this alpha amylase...is that something that might help me out with this problem? If so, can you only get at homebrew shops or is it more widely available? And how do you use it? Or does anyone have any other bright ideas for drying this stuff out?

It tastes decent but I'm a long way off from the 1.008 that the recipe calls for and was really hoping to come closer to what a Saison is supposed to taste like.

 

[shanecb]

I don't know if there's a point you shouldn't keep adding difference yeasts, but I think a champagne yeast might be able to knock it down more. Lalvin's EC-1118 is a beast of a yeast, and pretty hardy. How big was your 001 starter?

 

[neomantra]

I followed the wiki page here on making starters...so 2 cups of water to 1/2 cup DME.

 

[Homercidal]

It coudl be your wort is not as fermentable as it needs to be. Is this an extract batch? If AG what Temp did you mash at?

Saisons are notorious for not finishing dry. The original yeast ought to work, but you may want to stir it up and warm it up a bit. If it still isn't dropping, then you may have to resort to using a champagne yeast.

 

[neomantra]

It was a partial mash, which I did via BIAB method. For the mash temp I started out at 150 but it dropped a bit over the hour that I let it sit. I calculated it to be about 72% efficiency if that's relevant. The rest was DME. I used Hopville's recipe calculator to input my exact recipe with slight modifications and based on my entry it did say my FG would be around 1.020 but again I was hoping to follow the instructions I quoted above to get to a drier FG.

Is there a big difference in the likelihood that the gravity will drop further by adding champagne yeast versus the WLP001? And what are the chances that it's not at all a yeast issue and is just that all the fermentable sugars have already been consumed? (getting back to my earlier question about the alpha amylase)

 

[neomantra]

Just found this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/advice-drying-out-saison-86286/

I think before I add anything else I'm going to focus on trying to raise the temperature into the 80's and swirling the beer once a day to see if that helps.

 

[Bobby_M]

Definitely get it into the 80's and resuspend the yeast. That should get it started again.

 

[wonderbread23]

3724 is a tough yeast. It'll get there eventually, but you'll likely need to nurse it along. I've been doing the same thing right now. I cringe every time I see the ferm temp in the 80's, but I know its for the best.

 

[Homercidal]

No worries on temp. A highly respected professional brewer recently gave me instrucitons on how to brew a Saison similar to their very popular one. Mash LOW (148-150) and ferment high (90-95). Yeah, it kind of gives you the willies, but that's his claim.

He also said that while they have "tricks" to get the fermentation done sooner, that yeast might take 6 weeks or more to reach it's FG.

 

[caphector]

You want to be running 3724 at 80-90 degrees. I was talking to a brewer who uses it regularly, and he was saying the yeast may be a mutated red wine yeast. If you've ever fermented a red wine you'll know that they like being hot. I told him mine was at 90°F and he thought that was perfect.

 

[neomantra]

I've now got my carboy submerged in warm water (I don't have a heating belt or anything fancy). I also sanitized a spoon and stirred everything up inside the carboy to ensure the yeast is resuspended. The fermometer sticker only goes to 80 but it seems to be right at that temp now pretty consistently. Once a day or so I pull out some of the water and replace it with more warm water to keep the temp up. I haven't seen it fall below 78 since I started this a few days ago.

I figure it's probably not worth measuring gravity again for at least another couple weeks. There's nothing evident in the way of the airlock bubbling or a renewed krausen at this point though. Will keep you all posted on the results.

 

[caphector]

You might try a heating pad if you have one around. I put my Better Bottle carboy on a sheet pan with a heating pad under the sheet pan, then set the heating pad on Low. I watched the temperature for a couple days with a turkey fryer thermometer and it stayed right at 90°F. That might be a simpler option.

I pitched mine warm and it went mad. The difference after it got cold is dramatic enough that I'm considering getting more yeast and pitching it. See my videos on YouTube if you're interested.

 

[Bobby_M]

I keep mine hot with an old found aquarium heater in the water bath. Works great, automatic.

 

[neomantra]

After another week and a half of keeping the carboy temp above 80 there's been zero change in hydrometer readings. Going to assume there's just nothing left in the way of fermentable sugars at this point. The sample I took for the reading tasted good at least. I'll just have to give Saison stuff this another whirl next summer