Pressure-canned starter wort; why so dark?

[mongoose33]

Decided to take the plunge, make up some pressure-canned starter wort.

I put 100g of light DME in pint canning jars, added some water, mixed, added some more to 1/2" below the rim. Lidded them, put in pressure canner at 15psi for 30 minutes, and when they cooled and came out....well, let me let the picture show what they are:

Not only is there that sort of orange junk in there, the wort is very, very dark. The orange stuff kind of mixes up when I shake the jars--that's the one on the right.

By contrast, here's one of Morrey's jars; he did a similar pressure/time regime as I did:

Morrey's is about how I'd have expected mine to look.

Any idea what's going on? I can open one of course and see what I've got, but I'm just shocked by the difference. It looks burnt.

 

[Sbe2]

Hmm. Time for you and @Morrey to hash it out.

May hold off on my pressure canning until this issue is resolved.

Have you measured the SG or smelled an open jar?

 

[mongoose33]

Hmm. Time for you and @Morrey to hash it out.

May hold off on my pressure canning until this issue is resolved.

Have you measured the SG or smelled an open jar?

No, not yet--I thought I'd see if anyone had run across this or had any ideas.

It all smelled great going in--but coming out it doesn't look very good. I think your idea to taste it is the only logical next step.

As far as SG, it should be about 1.08 or a smidge higher. I'll measure that, too. Maybe tomorrow night.

 

[beermanpete]

The "orange stuff" is likely break material. I see break material in Morrey's wort as well but it has settled to the bottom. The color change is from the cooking time and temperature. You might try boiling in an open kettle, let it settle for a few mintures and then rack the wort into the Mason jars, leaving the break material behind, then sterilize them in the pressure cooker for 10 or 15 minutes.

 

[mongoose33]

The "orange stuff" is likely break material. I see break material in Morrey's wort as well but it has settled to the bottom. The color change is from the cooking time and temperature. You might try boiling in an open kettle, let it settle for a few mintures and then rack the wort into the Mason jars, leaving the break material behind, then sterilize them in the pressure cooker for 10 or 15 minutes.

I never get that material when I boil a starter in an Ehrlenmeyer flask on the stove, but I only boil for 10 minutes or so.

 

[beermanpete]

Just a thought. I get break material when boiling DME for starters but nothing that looks like your photos. Maybe the higher temp. in the pressure cooker creates some other reaction.

 

[jtratcliff]

if you swirl it up and let it settle, does it look like @Morrey's?

Could just be a mixing/settling issue...

 

[ESBrewer]

If it's pure malt and clean water only two reactions come to mind that would typically make it darker. One of them is the maillard reaction that occurs between sugars and amino acids when you heat up the extract in the cooker. Temperature would be critical here (the extract components as well). The other one is oxidation by air and this would mean that the lids have been leaking. Of course the color and composition of the original extract is important, too.

Did Morrey use the same extract and did you use the same cooker? The bottles seem to be the same.

 

[Horseflesh]

Fwiw mine looks orange like Morrey's, but I get the snot like you have. I use Briess "CBW Pilsen Light" DME and process for 30 minutes, and shoot for about 1.040.

If I did 1.080 I bet it would be a lot darker.

 

[suregork]

My autoclaved wort (made from extra light DME; 100 g / L) always ends up looking the same (lab autoclave, 121C for 15 minutes, temperature probe in liquid of equal volume; whole run time depends on liquid volume, but usually 45 minutes to 2 hours). As ESBrewer mentioned, the higher temperatures (up to 121C at 15 PSI) accelerates the Maillard reactions between the sugars and amino acids in the wort. The same reactions occur when you boil wort, but as this occurs at a lower temperature, it would take a longer time to make the wort that dark. The 'junk' is just denatured proteins ('break' material). Again, the higher temperatures means you will get more material than when boiling. If the wort doesn't end up looking like yours, it might not have been at 121C for long enough, and might not be completely sterile (it is of course impossible to judge just from color and depends on wort strength etc.).

 

[mongoose33]

OK, I have some more information. I opened one of the jars tonite, measured the gravity from the jar: 1.092

I then diluted it in a 1-liter beaker to 1 liter, and measured that: about 1.038, which is about where I'd expect it. Pics below.

It's still dark. Both my wife and I tasted it; she said the aroma reminded her of molasses. It is sweet, of course, but also has a sort of weird flavor that almost reminds me of something burned. Don't see how, it shouldn't have been above about 250 degrees.

I am totally bummed by this; I don't know if I can trust this to produce a starter that doesn't carry with it a bunch of off flavors. I suppose I can run a starter, crash it, decant it, and then pitch that, but my SOP has been to pitch the entire starter into the fermenter.

I suppose also I should run a starter and see what kind of post-starter flavors exist in the "beer" that's produced.

 

[Smellyglove]

When pressure cooking at 1Bar it afaik it speeds things up by 4x. And also I bet you didn't acidify it like you would in a normal mash, higher boil pH gives a darker wort. My bet is that you're fine.

 

[troutman]

The DME was on the bottom of the water filled jars? Did you ensure the DME was completely mixed into the water. Could it have settled and burnt? Did you use a canning basket to keep the jars off the bottom of the pressure cooker?

 

[jekeane]

OK, I have some more information. I opened one of the jars tonite, measured the gravity from the jar: 1.092

I then diluted it in a 1-liter beaker to 1 liter, and measured that: about 1.038, which is about where I'd expect it. Pics below.

It's still dark. Both my wife and I tasted it; she said the aroma reminded her of molasses. It is sweet, of course, but also has a sort of weird flavor that almost reminds me of something burned. Don't see how, it shouldn't have been above about 250 degrees.

I am totally bummed by this; I don't know if I can trust this to produce a starter that doesn't carry with it a bunch of off flavors. I suppose I can run a starter, crash it, decant it, and then pitch that, but my SOP has been to pitch the entire starter into the fermenter.

I suppose also I should run a starter and see what kind of post-starter flavors exist in the "beer" that's produced.

View attachment 556777 View attachment 556778

I would suggest trying crashing it and decanting. You may just decide that dumping a liter of oxidized I’ll treated beer wasn’t a good idea after all : p

When I decant there is no beer left behind at all. I use my current batch to loosen the yeast before pitching.

 

[mongoose33]

The DME was on the bottom of the water filled jars? Did you ensure the DME was completely mixed into the water. Could it have settled and burnt? Did you use a canning basket to keep the jars off the bottom of the pressure cooker?

I mixed it up. The jars sit on a sort of insert to keep them off the bottom of the pressure canner.

There were two layers of cans, and all of them ended up the same, so I'm pretty sure that didn't cause it--though it was a good idea to ask.

 

[mongoose33]

I would suggest trying crashing it and decanting. You may just decide that dumping a liter of oxidized I’ll treated beer wasn’t a good idea after all : p

Oxidized? How would that happen? And how would that be different than if I made a starter the normal way which is to boil in an Ehrlenmeyer flask, oxygenate it, then put on stir plate. I'd do the same thing with the canned starter. I'm missing something here.

I've had a lot of success just dumping the starter in the fermenter. It gets going far faster, and I haven't noticed any negative flavor consequences. Whatever ill-flavored compounds that exist in the starter should be cleared up by the yeast--isn't that why we raise temps at the end of fermentation, to allow the yeast to clean up after themselves?

When I decant there is no beer left behind at all. I use my current batch to loosen the yeast before pitching.

That's a good idea to use the current batch like that. It just never made sense to me that there's something wrong w/ the wort in the starter, when we're doing the same thing in the fermenter. If it's no good in the starter, it wouldn't be good in the fermenter.

BTW, when I originally shifted to oxygenating the wort, and dumping in the entire starter, I did it because I had some logical reasons to do it. Only later did I find this in White and Zainasheff's Yeast book, on pages 134 and 138.

 

[beermanpete]

I hope this is not to basic of a question; did you tighten the bands before or after the pressure cooking cycle? Maybe that would have some affect on the outcome due trapping gasses that should be allowed to outgas from the wort during the cooking cycle.

 

[mongoose33]

I hope this is not to basic of a question; did you tighten the bands before or after the pressure cooking cycle? Maybe that would have some affect on the outcome due trapping gasses that should be allowed to outgas from the wort during the cooking cycle.

I "tightened" them fingertip tight. Not cranked down, just to ensure the lid was fully in contact with the mouth of the jar. I even had a little of the wort escape into the pressure canner from at least one of the jars.

 

[ba-brewer]

@mongoose33 My canned starters darken quite a bit too and have a lot of dark break on the side like the pictures you posted, I do 1055 to 1060 for my quarts so my wort is bit lighter I think. I also do 1036 and 1025 in smaller quantities and they seem to not darken as much or it might be the jars are just smaller. I don't ever recall tasting any but I do get a slight caramel aroma. With time the break on the side settles and you can pour the clean stuff off fairly easy.

I have not noticed any off flavors in the finished beer but I do crash and decant off most of the starter wort/beer when I pitch.

I did one batch where I did an all grain mash and boiled the runnings until the break fell and then cooled and use clear wort for canning and that batch darken also but did have slightly less break. Too much work for what it reduced.

 

[ESBrewer]

Based on the taste description it is definitely the maillard reaction. The story below is about cooking but it describes well how the conditions in the cooker drive this reaction much faster than cooking the wort at 100C. pH and the consentrated wort full of sugar and protein is a favorable place for this reaction when the temperature gets well above 100C.

http://modernistcuisine.com/2013/03/the-maillard-reaction/

There must be something different in the actual conditions between you and Morrey, either the temperature inside cooker, time, wort concentration, different DME or pH (high pH accelerates the reaction).

 

[ESBrewer]

Some of the sugars and proteins are now rendered unsuitable for the yeast but I bet they will grow happily on this wort. Same kind of browning is often seen when preparing certain culture plates and broths for microbes in the autoclave. The taste and color can be problematic in beer so you want to decant the starter like people already said.

If you don't like the browning you could probably control it next time by checking and adjusting pH and pressure/temperature/time if possible and by choosing an extremely light colored extract. And don't add yeast nutrient as it usually contains extra free amino acids that could react on the cooker.

 

[pshankstar]

Hey @mongoose33 the DME to water ratio seems a bit high compared to what I do. I use 3.2oz (90.7g) for quart size jars, if I am using pint jars I cut that amount in half 1.6oz (45.4g). I do get break material in my jars too, but I wonder if yours is due to the high concentration. Below are two pictures of quart size jars I have that I just took pictures of this morning. The break material seems to have settled out. The older one from June is darker than the jar made in January. I think that just happens over time from what O2 was sealed in the jar while canning. I just thought I would share this. Cheers!