Pilsner mash Ph

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MSK_Chess

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was reading the following.

An authentic Pilsner mash should have a pH of about 4.5–4.8, which is significantly lower than the typical recommended range of 5.2–5.6. The low Pilsner pH, therefore, results in a slightly lower brewhouse yield, but its effect on the mash, the wort and the beer also help to define the Czech/Bohemian Pilsner as a distinct lager style.

In the mash, the low pH-value furthers the breakdown of proteins, which was an advantage when Groll brewed with undermodified malts. Proper protein degradation also results in plenty of free amino nitrogen (FAN), which helps promote healthy yeast. However, lautering can become more difficult if the pH gets too low.

In the kettle, lower pH-values improve hot break formation and protein precipitation, which results in cleaner wort in the fermenter. However, low pH-values also suppress alpha acid isomerization and thus hop utilization during the kettle boil.

In the fermenter, higher wort acidity accelerates the pH-drop during the initial stages of fermentation, and thus enhances the beer’s microbiological stability. It also results in a beer with great foam stability and head retention.

On the palate, therefore, the Pilsner tastes very soft, fresh, rounded, balanced, drinkable and pleasantly — not assertively — bitter, with lingering aroma reverberations.

http://byo.com/hops/item/526-czech-pilsner?viewDesktop=true

Has anyone tried mashing at this pH 4.5-4.8? Won't it produce a somewhat tart beer?
 
[...]Has anyone tried mashing at this pH 4.5-4.8? Won't it produce a somewhat tart beer?

Woof. Given it would have required almost 50 ml of 25% Phosphoric Acid to get my last 10 gallon Bohemian Pilsener mash down to pH 4.65 according to Bru'n Water, I'd be inclined to guess "yes".

But as I've never attempted to get a mash pH below 5.2 I don't actually know if that low a mash pH translates to the finished beer, which was likely destined to end up somewhere in that range anyway...

Cheers!
 
Woof. Given it would have required almost 50 ml of 25% Phosphoric Acid to get my last 10 gallon Bohemian Pilsener mash down to pH 4.65 according to Bru'n Water, I'd be inclined to guess "yes".

But as I've never attempted to get a mash pH below 5.2 I don't actually know if that low a mash pH translates to the finished beer, which was likely destined to end up somewhere in that range anyway...

Cheers!

yeah I seen after I posted this that someone else has raised the matter previously and the original article has been debunked. These figures refer to the finished pilsner pH, not the mash pH. :mug:

Martin from Bru'n'water knows more about beers and water chemistry than anyone I have ever read and he says its bunkum.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=588307
 
He wrote a lot of drivel on scottish ales for the Oxford Companion to beer

just looking at that linked thread, I posted in it saying much the same thing :)
 
He wrote a lot of drivel on scottish ales for the Oxford Companion to beer

just looking at that linked thread, I posted in it saying much the same thing :)

I see, he claims to be some kind of an authority on brewing. Clearly hes a spangle that needs someone to feel his bum and bring him back to reality. Anyway attempting a Vienna lager tomorrow, wish me luck for I have had mixed success with lagers in the past. ;)
 
I see, he claims to be some kind of an authority on brewing. Clearly hes a spangle that needs someone to feel his bum and bring him back to reality. Anyway attempting a Vienna lager tomorrow, wish me luck for I have had mixed success with lagers in the past. ;)

He doesn't claim to be, he is. I have disagreed with much that he's said, but the man has skills and knowledge far beyond you and I.
 
Reviving this old thread. I know it seemed like the 4.5-4.8 mash pH claim was a mistake but Annie Johnson - who was the 2013 Homebrewer of the Year, and the 2012 Pilsner Urquell Master Homebrewer and had a personal tour with the PU brewmasters - is emphatic that the mash pH @ PU is 4.5-4.8.

It seems wrong for so many reasons but I really am curious if anyone has given it a try. I am too conservative to risk a whole batch trying it out.
 
I wonder how long an acid rest would take to get a PH that low? If it would even be possible? You would also get a significant flavor impact from adding enough acid to get it there. It really makes no sense. There are so many negative side effects of mashing that low not only for the mash but the whole process down the line. I could see maybe knockout PH being that low but not mash.
 
Pilsner malt has very little inherent acidity when compared with any other class of malts, even other base malts. It is in fact rather basic with respect to the typical 5.2 to 5.6 mash pH targeting. pH lowering acid that is not present within the grist to begin with does not simply magically appear out of nowhere due to a rest in non acidic and also quite mineral deficient mash water, but rather must be added. It would take an obscene amount of acid to reduce a straight Pilsner malt grist to this pH level, so something seems highly suspect here.
 
I should clarify that I also think it is a highly suspect claim.

Agreed the brulosophy experiment is not a great test of the premise.

A thought occurred to me to do a mini experiment to do a 8 oz pilsner malt mash @ acid rest temp and see how low the pH actually can get.
 
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