PID / Temp Issues

[Hello]

I've had issues with my control panel since I purchased it. Unfortunately, there is no way I can send the panel back to the person who originally built it now. As long as I've had it, there have been issues with the HLT PID. The first one was bad, that was replaced by the person who built it, the second one always had some temp issue. I tried to fix it myself and could not. Finally, a friend of mine rewired the entire thing. I find myself facing the same issue now and could use some help.

I have a 50a system with two 5500 watt heating elements. (if that matters)

Issue: Temp on HLT PID is displaying a temperature that is at least 50ºF lower than the temperature of the actual water in the HLT.

Tests:
Moved HLT temp probe to BK, the temp on the BK PID showed the temperature of the water within 2ºF.
Moved the BK temp probe to HLT and the PID displayed the temperature of the HLT water about 50º F lower than what the actual temp was.
Ran autotune.

What I've done:
Replaced the HLT PID with a new Auber PID. Same issue persisted.
Re-wrired entire panel. Issue did not go away.

Random: I noticed that the PID "out" is illuminated. This is new, but I failed to figure out why that is the case as it is not the case on the BK PID. Pic attached.

I really could use some help. I've delayed finishing my HERMs setup because this panel never worked right. I've worked around it fine, but I am ready to finish the setup (everything is sitting in a box) and I know the HERMs is useless if the PID isn't registering correctly.
Thanks

 

[ancientmariner52]

I'm no way an expert, but you want help so I'll stick my oar in. Can you calibrate the probe to show correct temp? Somewhere in the PID set up there should be a way to 'force' the displayed temp to match actual temp. You've tested the probe, so could be the PID setup. I had to tell mine what type of probe and calibrate the temp before I ran autotune. Hope this helps, if not I'm sure real help will come along.

 

[processhead]

Well, it sounds like an issue in the HLT PID. You did not mention which Auberin controller you have, but most controllers have a setting that allows compensation adjustment of the displayed temperature value.
Your controller might just need to have that value adjusted. Tell us what you have and we can tell you which parameter to check and/or adjust.

 

[Hello]

Well, it sounds like an issue in the HLT PID. You did not mention which Auberin controller you have, but most controllers have a setting that allows compensation adjustment of the displayed temperature value.
Your controller might just need to have that value adjusted. Tell us what you have and we can tell you which parameter to check and/or adjust.

The manual says it is auber SYL-2362A2. Funny enough, the BK is the same setup as far as I can tell, even from the inside, and it doesn't behave the same.

The exact manual I have a printout of is also here:
http://www.auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2362 instruction 1.6.pdf

I'm no way an expert, but you want help so I'll stick my oar in. Can you calibrate the probe to show correct temp? Somewhere in the PID set up there should be a way to 'force' the displayed temp to match actual temp. You've tested the probe, so could be the PID setup. I had to tell mine what type of probe and calibrate the temp before I ran autotune. Hope this helps, if not I'm sure real help will come along.

I will read the PID documentation to see if I can figure out how to do that, but first, I will see if processhead can assist in telling me what to adjust. And really, I am at a loss so all ideas are useful to me at this point.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Processhead is the guy to listen to here. I learn every time he posts. Good luck.

 

[processhead]

On Page 2 of the manual there is in Table 1 a parameter called Input Offset. Note 5 on the following page describes how it works.
The default value is 0.
If it inadvertently was changed somehow, it would create the type of symptom you are describing.
I would check that first.
You could experiment with the parameter value and see if you can get the displayed temperature value to agree with the actual temperature, ie ice water bath or some other calibration standard.

 

[Hello]

On Page 2 of the manual there is in Table 1 a parameter called Input Offset. Note 5 on the following page describes how it works.
The default value is 0.
If it inadvertently was changed somehow, it would create the type of symptom you are describing.
I would check that first.
You could experiment with the parameter value and see if you can get the displayed temperature value to agree with the actual temperature, ie ice water bath or some other calibration standard.

OK! I think I understand how I have to change that through code 0089. I will try to get out there shortly and see what happens. I really appreciate it.

 

[Hello]

On Page 2 of the manual there is in Table 1 a parameter called Input Offset. Note 5 on the following page describes how it works.
The default value is 0.
If it inadvertently was changed somehow, it would create the type of symptom you are describing.
I would check that first.
You could experiment with the parameter value and see if you can get the displayed temperature value to agree with the actual temperature, ie ice water bath or some other calibration standard.

So I feel like I am close, but not. I managed to change the perimeters but it then occurred to me that I really don't know what the heck to change it to. I tried just doing the offset amount, but that didn't give me the results I thought I'd get. There are 4 fields and by pressing the up/down arrows I can also change it to negative. I tried just about everything and my results were that the PID showed a 6, a 156 (water was 58 at the time), 1999, etc. So what should I be entering? Default was 0000.

Thanks again.

 

[processhead]

The fact that the default value was zero makes me think that this particular parameter is not your issue.
Let me study the instructions and see if there is something else that you can check.

Another thing you could check is the configuration of one of the working units and record the configurations values. This would be a bit tedious, but by having a cheat sheet with known parameters from a working unit, it could shed some light on the one that isn't working.

 

[processhead]

Two other parameters that could affect the displayed temp value are the Input
Sensor Type and the Display Unit.
You may want to verify these two parameters are set the same as the working units.

 

[Hello]

The fact that the default value was zero makes me think that this particular parameter is not your issue.
Let me study the instructions and see if there is something else that you can check.

Another thing you could check is the configuration of one of the working units and record the configurations values. This would be a bit tedious, but by having a cheat sheet with known parameters from a working unit, it could shed some light on the one that isn't working.

Is this something I do by going into the settings like I did on the other or do I have to open the panel and check wires?

Two other parameters that could affect the displayed temp value are the Input
Sensor Type and the Display Unit.
You may want to verify these two parameters are set the same as the working units.

Interestingly enough, somehow I changed the Input and got the error EEEE. I figured that out and changed it back to P100, which is what I have. RTC P100s.

I will double check the display unit to ensure it is still F.

I admit, this almost seems so simple and yet so difficult. I changed out the PID myself thinking it was that, but it wasn't. I let my friend re-wire it because I was starting to get nervous that I was going to do some real damage.

 

[processhead]

"Is this something I do by going into the settings like I did on the other or do I have to open the panel and check wires?"

Yes. I am referring to configuration settings only.

 

[augiedoggy]

ahh I feel kind of bad since it sounds like this is the brumatic panel you bought that I suggested.. did you happen to perform an autotune on the pid? otherwise it will overshoot.
Also how do you know the BK is working correctly? do you hold temps in the BK? If not maybe swap the pids and temp probes around to test and see it behaves the same way? Since you swapped the pid and are still having the same issue it has to be either the autotune wasnt done or a bad temp probe at this point.

 

[processhead]

ahh I feel kind of bad since it sounds like this is the brumatic panel you bought that I suggested.. did you happen to perform an autotune on the pid? otherwise it will overshoot.
Also how do you know the BK is working correctly? do you hold temps in the BK? If not maybe swap the pids and temp probes around to test and see it behaves the same way? Since you swapped the pid and are still having the same issue it has to be either the autotune wasnt done or a bad temp probe at this point.

The OP's original complaint was the PID in his HLT was not displaying the correct temperature value. He seemed to have ruled out the probe as a problem.

It should display the correct value regardless of whether an autotune has been performed or not.

 

[augiedoggy]

The OP's original complaint was the PID in his HLT was not displaying the correct temperature value. He seemed to have ruled out the probe as a problem.

It should display the correct value regardless of whether an autotune has been performed or not.

Thats true but SHE stated the pid output light was staying on.. I assumed that was when it shouldnt have been on..and im unclear about what the other simiar issue were that she had the pid replaced for were and if those may be related to an autotune not being done.

In anycase if the pid was replaced as the op stated it was and the panel was already rewired for this issue and the issue came back or was possibly never really addressed, My educated guess would be the temp probe or wiring from the probe to the plug on the outside of the panel has become damaged.. I think its safe to assume here that the soldered and screwed wired between the probe jack and the pid in the panel should not be suspect unless someone was monkeying around in the panel right? These pids dont fail often (let alone twice even if the original was a auber clone) and usually when people replace them thinking its the problem they find later its the poor stainless braided temp probe wiring having a short which causes problems. (Johnnyrottens situation comes to mind). Ive had numerous strange temp reading behavior when those cheap probes would get damaged which is why I switched mine out to better teflon wire coated probes with disconnects at both ends.

also , are we sure the three probe wires were attached in the correct places when the pid was swapped out?

 

[processhead]

Thats true but SHE stated the pid output light was staying on.. I assumed that was when it shouldnt have been on..and im unclear about what the other simiar issue were that she had the pid replaced for were and if those may be related to an autotune not being done.

In anycase if the pid was replaced as the op stated it was and the panel was already rewired for this issue and the issue came back or was possibly never really addressed, My educated guess would be the temp probe or wiring from the probe to the plug on the outside of the panel has become damaged.. I think its safe to assume here that the soldered and screwed wired between the probe jack and the pid in the panel should not be suspect unless someone was monkeying around in the panel right? These pids dont fail often (let alone twice even if the original was a auber clone) and usually when people replace them thinking its the problem they find later its the poor stainless braided temp probe wiring having a short which causes problems. (Johnnyrottens situation comes to mind). Ive had numerous strange temp reading behavior when those cheap probes would get damaged which is why I switched mine out to better teflon wire coated probes with disconnects at both ends.

also , are we sure the three probe wires were attached in the correct places when the pid was swapped out?

The original complaint was that the PID temperature was reading 50 degrees below actual temp. A lower than actual reading could account for the PID calling for heat to come on if the set point was set to something higher.

As you mention, it would be great to rule out a wiring problem with the temp probes.
At this point, the OP states that the PID was moved and appeared to not work with a different temp probe. Its unclear if whether that included the internal panel wiring for the probes.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yeah I reread the original post... It doesnt make sense unless the problem is with the wiring going from the pid to the probe plug in the panel. Thats if the OP swapped connections when testing at the panel? since youve already ruled out the pid I would think maybe the plug itself has some sort of voltage leak or one of the two same colored wires are not making a good connection... best thing for someone to do would be to check it with a multimeter..

 

[Hello]

The original complaint was that the PID temperature was reading 50 degrees below actual temp. A lower than actual reading could account for the PID calling for heat to come on if the set point was set to something higher.

As you mention, it would be great to rule out a wiring problem with the temp probes.
At this point, the OP states that the PID was moved and appeared to not work with a different temp probe. Its unclear if whether that included the internal panel wiring for the probes.

I measured the connections with a multimeter then had someone who is an engineer do it. It all seemed ok. However, I went in and checked all settings against the working PID. I plugged the heat stick back in and it appeared that the temp was showing within a 6ºF difference. Not bad. I didn't run autotune again yet. I did run it once I got the panel re-wired.

I need to get it up to strike water temps, that is when the real difference came up. I think there is a way to calibrate it so that the real temp matches what the PID shows, but I don;t think the intent is to calibrate it so there is a true 40-60F difference.

I can't run my HERMs until I get this one settled. Again though, it just may be. I have to get out there again and run a real test to mash temps.

Yeah I reread the original post... It doesnt make sense unless the problem is with the wiring going from the pid to the probe plug in the panel. Thats if the OP swapped connections when testing at the panel? since youve already ruled out the pid I would think maybe the plug itself has some sort of voltage leak or one of the two same colored wires are not making a good connection... best thing for someone to do would be to check it with a multimeter..

Are you thinking the probe itself may be leaking voltage to the plug itself? Like maybe the plug for the probe on the panel has a faulty connection?

 

[augiedoggy]

yes where the wires are soldered.

 

[processhead]

Augiedoggy suggested you may have a probe wiring issue, which is a legitimate possibility.

Here is what you may want to try:
While the probe/PID are all working well together,
GENTLY pull/wiggle the probe wires where they enter the cabinet, (outside at plug, inside at connector) and also where they connect to the PID.

IMPORTANT! For the connections on the inside of the panel, don't do this with your hands, use an insulated tool like a plastic stick or something similar. You do not want to get your hands near any energized circuits in the panel.

If there is an intermittent connection at these points, you may see the indicated temperature reading fluctuate or give a weird invalid value. If you ID a point that is intermittent, shut off power and fix the connection.