percived hop bitterness issue.

[chef1978]

hello all,i brewed Vienna lager few weeks a go,100% Vienna malt beer,1.054 og,1.010 fg,i used wlp830,great lager fermentation,cool crushed it ,the beer has beauty full color,and according to my beer smith software the BU:GU ratio is 0.311,so really should be not bitter at all.last night i had little test of it,first sip,nice maltiness ,well balances,really drinkable beer,5 seconds later boom,the bitterness came out!!,its as biter as almost English IPA,so here is my theory,what could've happened.
either the alpha acid of the hops was wrong,somebody in the store messed up labels,or i added hops to boil for longer than i should,i highly doubt that the Beersmit made mistake with calculation,i forgot to mention that i used distilled water and build it according to Kai Troister recipe from Braukaiser,so really soft water.now how can i make it at least little more drinkable,i thought i will just chill it ,and run it through 1 micron filter,see how it turned out and maybe add some sugar for sweetness,than force carbed.

does this happened to anybody here,what would you do with it,and any theories what could've happened with the bitterness.cheers

 

[IslandLizard]

How much of which hops did you add and at what times in the boil?
What was their alleged %AA?

It's possible the hops were mislabeled.

What are you filtering it for, to remove the yeast?
How many weeks have you lagered this for?

 

[GHBWNY]

hello all,i brewed Vienna lager few weeks a go,100% Vienna malt beer,1.054 og,1.010 fg,i used wlp830,great lager fermentation,cool crushed it ,the beer has beauty full color,and according to my beer smith software the BU:GU ratio is 0.311,so really should be not bitter at all.last night i had little test of it,first sip,nice maltiness ,well balances,really drinkable beer,5 seconds later boom,the bitterness came out!!,its as biter as almost English IPA,so here is my theory,what could've happened.
either the alpha acid of the hops was wrong,somebody in the store messed up labels,or i added hops to boil for longer than i should,i highly doubt that the Beersmit made mistake with calculation,i forgot to mention that i used distilled water and build it according to Kai Troister recipe from Braukaiser,so really soft water.now how can i make it at least little more drinkable,i thought i will just chill it ,and run it through 1 micron filter,see how it turned out and maybe add some sugar for sweetness,than force carbed.

does this happened to anybody here,what would you do with it,and any theories what could've happened with the bitterness.cheers

My 2 cents: If you did boil longer than you should have, especially a high-alpha hop, it will definitely increase bitterness. A maltier brew can accommodate the extra bitterness to some degree, but a lager -- not as much. Running it through a filter at this point runs the risk of oxidizing it which will make things worse. Adding sugar at this point will not sweeten it; it will only cause the yeast to re-start fermenting, drying the flavor out. Chalk this one up to experience and a do another batch.

 

[Trail]

A lesson I learned the hard way this summer: Beersmith's information on alpha values for hops don't match reality! This isn't a defect in the software... hop crops change a lot year over year. In past years I go away with just taking the estimate, but after a particularly bitter beer that I expected to be quite moderately bitter, I doublechecked my bag and noticed that my fuggles were a full 2.5% higher AA than the recipe expected.

Fortunately, this is easy to control for. Doubleclick the ingredients in your recipe and adjust the alpha to match what's printed on your hop baggies. Look at what happens to your IBUs. Might explain it all right there.

And doubly fortunate, since hops fade earlier than other ingredients, you can just shelve this batch and come back to it later!

 

[chef1978]

used tottal of 200grams but all additions was almodt in the end of boil,15,10,5 0 min,user tetnager 3% AA,and hersbrucker 1.6%AA 100 grams each.

 

[chef1978]

A lesson I learned the hard way this summer: Beersmith's information on alpha values for hops don't match reality! This isn't a defect in the software... hop crops change a lot year over year. In past years I go away with just taking the estimate, but after a particularly bitter beer that I expected to be quite moderately bitter, I doublechecked my bag and noticed that my fuggles were a full 2.5% higher AA than the recipe expected.

Fortunately, this is easy to control for. Doubleclick the ingredients in your recipe and adjust the alpha to match what's printed on your hop baggies. Look at what happens to your IBUs. Might explain it all right there.

And doubly fortunate, since hops fade earlier than other ingredients, you can just shelve this batch and come back to it later!

this is what i did,i readjusted the AA on the software.

 

[chef1978]

the reason i thought filtering might help is,hop oils tend to stick to yeast cells,1 micron will filter most of the yeasts,and some hop oils with it,hopefully,

 

[Trail]

Might work, but time will do the trick too and it won't pull any yeast flavors out at the same time. Totally your call, though.

Just a protip, you can edit an existing post if you think of something you want to add. As a fellow forgetful poster, I do it all the time.

 

[IslandLizard]

used tottal of 200grams but all additions was almodt in the end of boil,15,10,5 0 min,user tetnager 3% AA,and hersbrucker 1.6%AA 100 grams each.

200 grams of hops in a 5 gallon Pilsner batch? 60 grams is more typical. Even in a 10 gallon batch 200 grams would be pushing it, even with your lowish %AA hops. They could be mislabeled...

My Tettnanger is 5.3 %AA and Hersbrucker 6.1 %AA. I can see why you need to use more than double.

Your late additions can add significant bitterness, as isomerization continues after flameout, until the wort is below 160F, albeit slower at lower temps. So unless your chilling is fast, it still adds IBUs.

the reason i thought filtering might help is,hop oils tend to stick to yeast cells,1 micron will filter most of the yeasts,and some hop oils with it,hopefully,

Not sure if that would help much. It isn't a NEIPA, drenched in hop oils.

Lagering (near freezing cold + time) may smooth things out. If your Pilsner isn't clear, more yeast needs to settle and may take some of the bitterness with it or away during lagering.

 

[GHBWNY]

A lesson I learned the hard way this summer: Beersmith's information on alpha values for hops don't match reality! This isn't a defect in the software... hop crops change a lot year over year. In past years I go away with just taking the estimate, but after a particularly bitter beer that I expected to be quite moderately bitter, I doublechecked my bag and noticed that my fuggles were a full 2.5% higher AA than the recipe expected.

Fortunately, this is easy to control for. Doubleclick the ingredients in your recipe and adjust the alpha to match what's printed on your hop baggies. Look at what happens to your IBUs. Might explain it all right there.

And doubly fortunate, since hops fade earlier than other ingredients, you can just shelve this batch and come back to it later!

Inadvertent bitterness in my brew was due to too much pre-boil vol to which I added the 60 min hops, but then had to boil 2 hours to reduce. The result was a definite bitterness on the back end that was out-of-character for the style, but not totally objectionable. It has been several months after the fact and the bitterness has not budged. While I would agree that the perceived "fading" of hops might occur prior to other ingredients, from my experience it is the hop flavor and aroma that fade, and not bitterness.

 

[Trail]

I'm under the impression that bitterness fades as well, but more slowly than other hop flavors. Anecdotally, I brewed a black IPA years ago and foolishly pegged it at 100+ IBUs, with a SG of 10.45 or so. Absolutely monstrously bitter.

Six months later it had become drinkable. Not good, but the bitterness had faded enough to taste the malt and it was approaching some semblance of balance.

The Classic Beer Styles series book on Barleywine suggests bitterness fades during extended conditioning too.

 

[chef1978]

all good advice,i brewed it to be crowd pleaser for b-day party in 2 weeks,i guess i will run back to the store and get myself stuff to to brew quick and easy ordinary bitter or Irish ale or something like that.

 

[Yooper]

What did you "build" your distilled water to? The reason I ask is that sulfate plus noble hops tend to create this really harsh bitterness in the beer.

If you didn't add gypsum it can't be that, but a high sulfate level can really make the bitterness intense feeling.

Also that seems like a lot of hops in a late addition, and Beersmith's IBU calculation of late hops can really suck. Can you check your settings and see what you have for the utilization? Also, if you post your recipe and the exact hop additions, we can take a look and see if it should taste that beer.

 

[ericbw]

Is 1.6% AA right?

 

[chef1978]

Yup1.6AA seems strange to me

 

[chef1978]

Is 1.6% AA right?

What did you "build" your distilled water to? The reason I ask is that sulfate plus noble hops tend to create this really harsh bitterness in the beer.

If you didn't add gypsum it can't be that, but a high sulfate level can really make the bitterness intense feeling.

Also that seems like a lot of hops in a late addition, and Beersmith's IBU calculation of late hops can really suck. Can you check your settings and see what you have for the utilization? Also, if you post your recipe and the exact hop additions, we can take a look and see if it should taste that beer.

For 40 litres of water,so mash water and sparse water together I used 4 gr of gypsum,3.6 Epsom salt,5.2 gr calcium chloride.

I used 6.5 kg vienna malt best malz.
60 gr tettnag 3.5AA 10min boil
30gr halertauer 1.6AA 10 min boil
30gr halertauer 1.6 AA 5 min boil
40 gr tetnager 3.5 AA 0 min
40 gr halertauer 1.6 AA 0 min

Boil was 60 min,ohg 1.055 fg 1.010

What's suppose to be the hop utilization in beersmith?thanks.

 

[Yooper]

For 40 litres of water,so mash water and sparse water together I used 4 gr of gypsum,3.6 Epsom salt,5.2 gr calcium chloride.

I used 6.5 kg vienna malt best malz.
60 gr tettnag 3.5AA 10min boil
30gr halertauer 1.6AA 10 min boil
30gr halertauer 1.6 AA 5 min boil
40 gr tetnager 3.5 AA 0 min
40 gr halertauer 1.6 AA 0 min

Boil was 60 min,ohg 1.055 fg 1.010

What's suppose to be the hop utilization in beersmith?thanks.

So, what is the final batch size? 23L? more? With nearly 100 ppm of chloride and of sulfate, I'd call that overkill and maybe a little minerally while the noble hops will probably be a bit harsh with that much sulfate, but it's not terrible.

 

[chef1978]

So, what is the final batch size? 23L? more? With nearly 100 ppm of chloride and of sulfate, I'd call that overkill and maybe a little minerally while the noble hops will probably be a bit harsh with that much sulfate, but it's not terrible.

22 in to the fermenter,around 20 in to keg

 

[chef1978]

i looked at my beersmith setting the whirlpool utilization of hop is at 50%