Pellicle infected IPA to sour?

[Jaša Ratkai]

So, I brewed an IPA had it fermented for 10 days, then I dry hopped and beer got infected with pellicle. I won't be able to drink beer fast enough till it turns sour, so I was thinking about adding some fruits and let it sit for a few months. Is it a good or a bad idea?

 

[ccous]

What does the pellicle look like? It is likely Brett. You could have a nice Brett IPA on your hands.

 

[Jaša Ratkai]

There are white stringy bubbles on top of wort.
Also another question I used some syphons and tubes and fermentor for this infected beer. How should I clean it and sanitize it? Hot water and dumb everything in starsan for few days?

 

[Rob2010SS]

There are white stringy bubbles on top of wort.
Also another question I used some syphons and tubes and fermentor for this infected beer. How should I clean it and sanitize it? Hot water and dumb everything in starsan for few days?

100% honesty - if you plan on getting more into sours, keep the siphon and tubes you used but label them and ONLY use them for sours. Never use them for anything that you don't want sour. If you don't plan to do sours, toss them and replace them. Too risky, in my opinion.

In regards to the beer, I'd let it go and see how it comes out. Like someone else said, you might have a nice Brett IPA!

 

[Jaša Ratkai]

So should I add some fruits to the beer or just leave it like that?

 

[Rob2010SS]

You could if you wanted to. Transfer the beer onto some fruit and just let it sit like you said. You take a risk here though if you haven't sampled it. Might not even taste good. If it were mine, I wouldn't do that just yet. I'd wait it out and let the beer finish completely, sample it, and see if it's worth the time/investment to add fruit. Someone else may disagree with me though.

 

[Jaša Ratkai]

The beer was fermenting 22 days, I infected it with dry hop, so beer should be finished also it tastes quite fine.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yep, understood. I was saying let whatever bacteria got in do it's thing and see what it tastes like down the road. I don't know if you keg or bottle but I would want to make sure that bacteria is done before bottling. Otherwise you could have exploding bottles

 

[Jaša Ratkai]

Okay, so I'll let it sit for a while. Thanks for all the advice and knowledge!

 

[RPh_Guy]

What does the pellicle look like? It is likely Brett. You could have a nice Brett IPA on your hands.

Not necessarily. Appearance of of pellicle does not mean it is Brett. Many microbes can form a pellicle.

I won't be able to drink beer fast enough till it turns sour,

Not necessarily. Since we do not know what the contaminating organism(s) is/are, it is not safe to assume it is Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB). It may not become sour. My guess is it probably won't. Hops generally inhibit LAB.

Also another question I used some syphons and tubes and fermentor for this infected beer. How should I clean it and sanitize it? Hot water and dumb everything in starsan for few days?

You need to use a cleaning agent (like PBW) between brews. Only clean surfaces can be sanitized.
A proper cleaning and sanitizing should be good enough to use your equipment again.

Do you bottle?
The sooner you bottle, the more careful you'll need to be to prevent potential bottle bombs. If possible, refrigerate all the bottles after they finish carbonating. This is to prevent the possibility of high-attenuation yeast from creating additional carbonation and prevent any flavor development from contaminants. Make sure you are checking the carbonation level at least weekly.
You can leave it sit for a few weeks or months to be more certain it's shelf stable if you want. However, in the meantime it may oxidize.
I normally would suggest waiting a few weeks, but if the beer oxidizes since you opened it to add hops it'll be ruined anyway.
In this case I suggest to bottle it now.

If you weren't originally planning to add fruit, I still wouldn't. The pellicle by itself doesn't change anything except you need to be careful to prevent over-carbonation.

Does your fermenter have a spigot so you can monitor SG without introducing oxygen?
If you do want to add fruit, it will purge the head space of oxygen and allow you to wait longer to see what happens with the gravity without oxidation, but you risk wasting the fruit if off-flavors from the contamination develop.

 

[divrack]

I wouldn't add fruit, but then I hardly ever like fruited beer unless it's lactic and low hopped.
You might like to add a bit of Oak, but again Id wait and see what you have. Leave it a couple weeks and measure gravity and taste it.
A nice brett Oak ipa can be a fine thing, oxygen minimising is important though. Ideally you'd want to stick it in a keg and purge.

 

[Jaša Ratkai]

This is the picture after transfering to secondary. Should I leave it or just dump the batch?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Should I leave it or just dump the batch?

See above. If it smells/tastes fine, package it.
You need to (1) protect from oxygen and (2) take precautions against bottle bombs.

 

[Jaša Ratkai]

I've made like 5 batches of this recipe before and after tasting it and smelling it I'm quite positive it is becoming sour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've made like 5 batches of this recipe before and after tasting it and smelling it I'm quite positive it is becoming sour.

So.. Decide whether you want a sour IPA.

Still (1) protect from oxygen and (2) take precautions against bottle bombs.

 

[Jaša Ratkai]

By protect from oxygen you mean what? that the bucket is sealed tight and I have airlock on top?
And if I leave it to become sour, even after few months I have to be careful abou bottle bombs?
Sorry for all the questions it is just my first time that my beer got infected after like 25 batches or so and thanks for all the anwsers.

 

[ccous]

Not necessarily. Appearance of of pellicle does not mean it is Brett. Many microbes can form a pellicle.


Not necessarily. Since we do not know what the contaminating organism(s) is/are, it is not safe to assume it is Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB). It may not become sour. My guess is it probably won't. Hops generally inhibit LAB.

I know many things cause pellicle formation. I also read quite a bit, including MtF, and brew quite a bit of wild/sour stuff intentionally. Your quote is exactly why I said Brett is most likely given it is a hoppy beer. Wild yeast are the most important ubiquitous organisms floating around and sitting on every surface just waiting to land in our beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sorry for all the questions

No problem

Fermentation removes all the oxygen from the beer and head space. The atmosphere has about 21% oxygen. By opening the bucket, you let in the atmosphere with all its oxygen. Oxygen will dissolve in the beer and react with compounds in the beer, a process called oxidation. Bad for flavor. The longer it sits there with oxygen, the worse it gets.

(1) protect from oxygen
You can bottle now to minimize the effect,
OR add some kind of sugar or fruit to kick up fermentation,
OR somehow purge head space with forced CO2 (especially if you keg),
OR add Brettanomyces yeast, which scavenges oxygen, but you might end up with acetic acid (vinegar) production and you'll need to let it sit for 6 months or longer.

(2) take precautions against bottle bombs.
After carbonation, refrigerate and/or monitor for over-carbonation
OR use heavy bottles.
Just pay attention and it'll be fine. Don't stick the bottles in a closet and forget about them for weeks.

@ccous
Please help me understand...
How do you know yeast are more prevalent than bacteria either airborne or on particular surfaces? Source please?

Not all bacteria are sensitive to hops. How can you make a determination that a pellicle is more likely formed by yeast than bacteria in this situation?

There are many genera of wild yeast, some of whom can form a pellicle. How are you determining that Brett is the most likely?

In your experience with wild fermentation, do you isolate and identify single strains?If not, how can you make a conclusion as to which organism(s) are involved in pellicle formation? Wouldn't you need to study them individually? Even if you did, how could you exclude the possibility that other organisms present could also form a pellicle, without definitively isolating and studying all of them? I'm just not sure how wild fermentation experience provides any additional information on identifying an organism, since pellicles don't really seem to broadcast the identity of the microbe(s) that formed it.

For now I'd have to say, "pellicle with hops therefore yeast therefore Brett" is a non sequitur conclusion. I'm definitely open to learning more about this

 

[Jaša Ratkai]

Fermentation removes all the oxygen from the beer and head space. The atmosphere has about 21% oxygen. By opening the bucket, you let in the atmosphere with all its oxygen.

So when I dry hop, I must do it as quickly as possible to prevent too much oxygen getting in the bucket?

 

[ccous]

@ccous
Please help me understand...
How do you know yeast are more prevalent than bacteria either airborne or on particular surfaces? Source please?

Not all bacteria are sensitive to hops. How can you make a determination that a pellicle is more likely formed by yeast than bacteria in this situation?

There are many genera of wild yeast, some of whom can form a pellicle. How are you determining that Brett is the most likely?

In your experience with wild fermentation, do you isolate and identify single strains?If not, how can you make a conclusion as to which organism(s) are involved in pellicle formation? Wouldn't you need to study them individually? Even if you did, how could you exclude the possibility that other organisms present could also form a pellicle, without definitively isolating and studying all of them? I'm just not sure how wild fermentation experience provides any additional information on identifying an organism, since pellicles don't really seem to broadcast the identity of the microbe(s) that formed it.

For now I'd have to say, "pellicle with hops therefore yeast therefore Brett" is a non sequitur conclusion. I'm definitely open to learning more about this [/QUOTE]

Obviously just made a quick assumption, which is why I said he 'could' have inadvertently made a brett beer. It is hard to know what will land and take hold in an already fermented out beer. In no way am I confident in what took hold in this beer. I do not isolate and identify single strains because I don't have the time or resources. I'm sure you're familiar with more literature than I am, and you've probably read this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3991685/. It gives a good idea of the sequence of what organisms take hold and ferment out lambics. As far as I know nothing similar has been done to see and what takes hold in fermented/finished beer. I'm also pretty sure it's pretty hard to infect beer by dry hopping it; I've never had it happen in the dozens of times I've dry hopped a beer, so something must have touched this beer (and had a hefty load of organisms) or it was exposed to the environment for an extended time. So just based off the order of what takes hold in lambics and when, I just made the following assumptions:

1) Enterobacteriaceae - very ubiquitous in environment - but probably not, as they are sensitive to anything over 2% alcohol (hop sensitive as well?). Many other bacterial organisms (most I believe) are ethanol sensitive. Not sure a few organisms of any bacteria (Enterobacter, Klebsiella, E. coli) would be able to take hold strongly and quickly in finished beer.
2) Sacch cerevisiae and pastorianus - well, the beer is already done and these don't form pellicles
3) Pedio damnosus - could be, but I'm not sure how quickly pedio forms a pellicle as described, or whether it would take hold that quickly in fermented out beer. I think they would need at minimum a few weeks/likely months to show any evidence they are there. Acetobacter could also be there but they really like oxygen and are more of a contaminant during longer aging.
4) LAB - most are hop sensitive, I know some are not. I have strains that are not. Again, wouldn't LAB take hold much more slowly in finished beer? I don't know for sure, but like Pedio I assumed so
5) D. brux/other spp - ethanol-resistant, acid-resistant, not hop sensitive. Therefore can easily take hold in a finished beer. And will form a pellicle pretty darn quickly, given what I've seen when purposely pitching small amounts of brux or lambicus into fermented beers to age.
6) Any other of a number organisms present in the environment, but I know nothing about how easily they will take hold in an acidic (finished ale is generally in the low to mid 4% range), alcoholic (likely over5-6% in this case), and highly hopped environment. So it was just a quick guess based off my limited background. Could for sure be plenty of other wild yeasts (Candida, Hanseniaspora, etc.), which I favor over bacteria. I do not know how these behave/what to expect from them or how they look. But I will redact my original comment and simply say: "My guess is you may have inadvertently made a nice wild IPA/hoppy farmhouse ale." Who knows. I would taste it after a month and see if its heading in a positive direction.

 

[RPh_Guy]

So when I dry hop, I must do it as quickly as possible to prevent too much oxygen getting in the bucket?

Right. Some people dry hop in the tail end of fermentation while there's still CO2 production.
A secondary vessel usually isn't desired for the same reason.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just some FYI...

The microorganisms in that brewery have been groomed and selected for centuries.
Brett is common in such beer (and locations) because the barrels are inoculated with the house culture. Brett's and Pedio's ability to survive indefinitely allows them to dominate other organisms via natural selection during long barrel aging.

Lots of possibilities for random pellicles. Acetobacter ... Pichia ... Bacillus ... Leuconostoc ... Zygosaccharomyces ... Lactococcus ... Torluspora ... Oenococcus ... Saccharomyces, Etc. Etc. Etc. The microbe list on the MTF pellicle page is far from complete.
Some Saccharomyces strains can indeed form a pellicle. WLP644 Sacc Trois is a commercial example. Belle Saison forms a biofilm on solid surfaces.
Some Sacc strains can contaminate a fermented beer -- "diastaticus" variants.

So many things can grow in beer it's crazy. That's why I love the microbiological aspect of brewing! We don't even really know very much about most of them, and the amount of diversity among strains is staggering.
Some cool stuff going on with some of the lesser known labs:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Nonconventional_Yeasts_and_Bacteria

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

I agree the wild whatever might have been there before dry hopping and that the oxygen exposure caused the pellicle formation.

Since we've already hijacked the thread I'd love any tips for making great wild beer. I really haven't delved into it much myself.

Cheers

 

[bracconiere]

just to add my two cents...when i get an infected batch i run it through a still and make fortified beer....really accentuates the hops flavor!

 

[Dland]

I know how to make infected beer that tastes like vomit acid you got to dump down the driveway.

Original poster said they'd done around 25 batches without a problem. Well I got up to 37, until something happened and my gear was infected for many batches.

I would monitor current batch frequently, don't assume what ever is in it won't be in the next one, and could build up and get worse. Even if it just got introduced while dry hopping or wherever, it might be in your system now so it is a good time to take everything apart and make sure everything is clean and sanitized. Consider replacing hoses, plastics degrade and become porous. Take apart and clean, valves, sight glasses, etc can't be sanitized if it not clear of debris and clean. Chillers that have wort running through them are highly suspect. Find the problem before your have to dump too many batches.

If your lucky, infection might turn out good as others have stated,... if you like sours. In my case whatever got in there rendered the beer undrinkable.

 

[nrjones89]

I agree that this is likely a brett contamination. What hop aromas did you go for with the dry hop? A hoppy brett beer can definitely be a good combo. Personally, I would just leave it and see what happens.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I agree that this is likely a brett contamination.

Again, maybe there's Brett in the beer, but there's nothing to suggest that's the case.

Brett isn't what makes sour beer taste sour. Brett can produce acetic acid, given time and oxygen, but the beer would smell strongly of vinegar long before it would taste "sour". OP hasn't mentioned vinegar, which has a very distinct aroma and flavor. The odor threshold is extremely low.

Sour beer is sour from lactic acid, typically produced by LAB. Some wild yeasts are known to produce some lactic acid, but Brett isn't one of them.

Even if it did smell like vinegar, Brett isn't the only pellicle-forming microbe that produces acetic acid. Acetobacter is quite common and can easily contaminate beer. Plenty of LAB can potentially form pellicles and produce some amount of acetic acid.

So, Likely Brettanomyces? No, not with any reasonable degree of certainty. At this point I'd say it's likely not Brett. 100% Brett beers don't suddenly become sour/acetic in a few days. Bacteria, on the other hand, are quite fast at souring.