Palmer's Saison and math

[StickWaver]

Greetings, oh wise collective....


So, I'm looking to brew a "by the book" saison -I'm still fairly new, so I'm just dialing in my processes and not getting too crazy yet.

For the record, here is Palmer's malt bill for the recipe:
Pilsener LME - 7.7lb
Cane Sugar - 1lb
Wheat LME - 0.75lb
Munich LME - 0.5lb

So, I pulled up Palmer's "Brewing Classic Styles" for the recipe. My LHBS didn't have the required amounts of Wheat and Munich LME, 0.75lb and 0.5lb respectively; it felt like a waste to buy 3.3lb cans just to use a small portion of them and lose the rest since I don't brew quite that much. So, the shop recommended switching out to a pound of Wheat DME. I did that, the math checked out as a fair replacement. They also didn't carry Pilsener LME, so I switched out with Golden Light.

The numbers I'm getting from BrewMaster and BrewToad (my usual calculator/recipe hoards) don't make sense. For some reason, I'm getting a whole percent ABV higher than Palmer (though adding his recipe in gets me different than than the published numbers as well).

So... long story short (too late!) I'm thinking of either cutting the sugar and Wheat DME from 1lb to 0.5lb each, or leaving the DME alone, and cutting the sugar completely. Either way, that should get me into the 7% ABV range - which is right at the upper "limit" for a saison.

Thoughts? In the end, if I cut nothing I end up with an 8% beer, which isn't the end of the world. But it would be nice to try and get it in the guidelines.

SW

 

[morticaixavier]

Greetings, oh wise collective....


So, I'm looking to brew a "by the book" saison -I'm still fairly new, so I'm just dialing in my processes and not getting too crazy yet.

For the record, here is Palmer's malt bill for the recipe:
Pilsener LME - 7.7lb
Cane Sugar - 1lb
Wheat LME - 0.75lb
Munich LME - 0.5lb

So, I pulled up Palmer's "Brewing Classic Styles" for the recipe. My LHBS didn't have the required amounts of Wheat and Munich LME, 0.75lb and 0.5lb respectively; it felt like a waste to buy 3.3lb cans just to use a small portion of them and lose the rest since I don't brew quite that much. So, the shop recommended switching out to a pound of Wheat DME. I did that, the math checked out as a fair replacement. They also didn't carry Pilsener LME, so I switched out with Golden Light.

The numbers I'm getting from BrewMaster and BrewToad (my usual calculator/recipe hoards) don't make sense. For some reason, I'm getting a whole percent ABV higher than Palmer (though adding his recipe in gets me different than than the published numbers as well).

So... long story short (too late!) I'm thinking of either cutting the sugar and Wheat DME from 1lb to 0.5lb each, or leaving the DME alone, and cutting the sugar completely. Either way, that should get me into the 7% ABV range - which is right at the upper "limit" for a saison.

Thoughts? In the end, if I cut nothing I end up with an 8% beer, which isn't the end of the world. But it would be nice to try and get it in the guidelines.

SW

not sure about the math.

1 lb of Wheat DME in place of both the Wheat and Munich LME? that works out I guess.

is the OG the same but the FG is different? DME is more fermentable than LME and a lot of recipe calculators have that programmed in. But I think it's important to remember that the software is just taking an educated guess at what's going to happen.

It will be fine the way you have it. don't leave out the sugar, if you want to knock down the golden light to lose that 1% ABV go for it but the sugar will help dry out the beer which is really necessary for a saison.

Also don't take the style guidelines too seriously for saison. it's a pretty fast and loose style in the real world.

 

[Calder]

My estimate for 5 gallons is about 1.073; 7.7 lbs LME + 1 lb sugar + 1 lb DME.

That is not a bad place for a Saison. I don't believe there are any style guidelines for a Saison, except for the yeast needing to be predominant part of the flavor profile.

Do not drop the sugar. Personally, at 10% of the fermebtables, I think it is low for the style. An extra 0.5 or even a pound would not be out of place, especially since you are using extract which is not as fermentable as a low temp mash associated with thus style.

 

[lowtones84]

If anything I would say cut some of the Pils extract or Munich extract and then steep some munich. Honestly 7% is only accurate for the way that American microbrewers brew saisons, so 8% isn't going to hurt. Saison has a wide range of variables, but really 3-5% ABV is where they should be, the 6% and above stuff is a modern, "bigger is better" specialty beer interpretation.

 

[Calder]

If anything I would say cut some of the Pils extract or Munich extract and then steep some munich. Honestly 7% is only accurate for the way that American microbrewers brew saisons, so 8% isn't going to hurt. Saison has a wide range of variables, but really 3-5% ABV is where they should be, the 6% and above stuff is a modern, "bigger is better" specialty beer interpretation.

3 to 5 may have been the norm 100 years ago when it was a staple for the farm workers, but modern BELGIAN saisons are much higher. A quick look at 'Farmhouse Ales', page 139, lists a 'sampling of commercial Belguan Saisons', witha abvs ranging from 5.0% for Saison Silly to 7.5% for Fantome Printemps.

 

[lowtones84]

3 to 5 may have been the norm 100 years ago when it was a staple for the farm workers, but modern BELGIAN saisons are much higher. A quick look at 'Farmhouse Ales', page 139, lists a 'sampling of commercial Belguan Saisons', witha abvs ranging from 5.0% for Saison Silly to 7.5% for Fantome Printemps.

Isn't that what I said? My point is really that 7% is already pretty high, so who cares if you get up to 8%?

Edit: I realize I said American microbrewers. While that is mostly what I meant, I recognize that the norm even in Belgium is over 5%. Fantome is the only one that is that high. In the same book the head brewer at Dupont admits that even at 6.3% Saison Dupont is high. Most of the other examples are in the 5-6% range. American microbreweries just seem to push the abv up on many things. Ex: Tank 7 from Boulevard is 8.5%, and is a delicious beer. Anyhow, not trying to get in a style debate, just trying to offer some help.

 

[MikePote]

Keep the sugar. It will help dry out the beer which is key for a saison.

Out of curiosity what yeast are you using? I recently made my first saison (which was also my first AG) and used bottle cultured ommegang yeast and it turned out great. The majority of people use wyeast 3711 or 3724. Here is a pretty good thread about the two with some info on using them together which sounds interesting.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/wyeast-3711-v-3724-tasting-notes-187360/

 

[StickWaver]

I'm trying the White Labs 566 - the Saison II yeast, mostly because the LHBS didn't have either of the Wyeast strains you mentioned. I'm not really confident in my ability to harvest from bottles (though that does intrigue me, and might be a future project), so I tend to stick to prepackaged strains.

Thanks to everyone for the advice - I think I'll keep it as is, and see what happens. Worst case scenario? I have beer.