Great explanation, I agree that it makes a difference. Easily discernible, but at the same time, I get people not caring about the subtleties. To each his own I guess. My beers have greatly improved since following the process.
Oxidation Risk During Sparging?
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Great explanation, I agree that it makes a difference. Easily discernible, but at the same time, I get people not caring about the subtleties. To each his own I guess. My beers have greatly improved since following the process.
Interesting thanks
Yah i get that people have preferences.
For example I hate sour beers. Every one I’ve ever had was an instant drain pour. But I don’t deny they exist because I don’t like them.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
I was going to deride you for that comment, then I remembered I hate NEIPA's (well, actually just 'don't particularly like' - hates a bit too strong a word). I know I'll probably be ousted from the homebrew community for saying that.
First, the caveat that what I'm about to say is not in support or against the entire LODO universe. Psychology is very interesting.
If you look at what the folks at Brulosophy are doing, you get two very different reactions. First, the staunch supporters will quote their results every time the topic comes up as if it seals the deal on the subject. Others will dismiss all their results because they are not scientific enough, the sample size is too small, the controls are too loose, they didn't repeat the experiment enough times. If they get results that match classic pro brewing literature, that too will be dismissed as only applying to large batches. You can't have it both ways. The funding for rigorous studies are going to come from production breweries. Who is going to pay for that level of scrutiny for small homebrew batches? All I'm saying is if their methods and results are BS, please show them how it's done and start experimenting, collecting data and publish YOUR results so we have a bigger data set.
I let a lot of people taste my beer and have been competing a lot lately and I'm proud to get a lot of positive feedback both casually and in the form of medals. The very next thing that happens is that people struggling with their process or otherwise not happy with their own brewing results start asking me what I'm doing differently. That's a really hard thing to answer in a short conversation because "different" is certainly relative. I spend time finding out what they do for recipe choices, water source, water mods, hot side, cold side, packaging, etc. and offer all the different ways I deal with it. 99% of the time the reaction I get is "jeez, that's a lot of work, money......... eh, I don't care THAT much".
Long story short, it's not any one particular category of focus that makes all the difference. You can get away with a LOT of less than ideal methods and still make beer that you find drinkable.
If you look at what the folks at Brulosophy are doing, you get two very different reactions. First, the staunch supporters will quote their results every time the topic comes up as if it seals the deal on the subject. Others will dismiss all their results because they are not scientific enough, the sample size is too small, the controls are too loose, they didn't repeat the experiment enough times. If they get results that match classic pro brewing literature, that too will be dismissed as only applying to large batches. You can't have it both ways. The funding for rigorous studies are going to come from production breweries. Who is going to pay for that level of scrutiny for small homebrew batches? All I'm saying is if their methods and results are BS, please show them how it's done and start experimenting, collecting data and publish YOUR results so we have a bigger data set.
I let a lot of people taste my beer and have been competing a lot lately and I'm proud to get a lot of positive feedback both casually and in the form of medals. The very next thing that happens is that people struggling with their process or otherwise not happy with their own brewing results start asking me what I'm doing differently. That's a really hard thing to answer in a short conversation because "different" is certainly relative. I spend time finding out what they do for recipe choices, water source, water mods, hot side, cold side, packaging, etc. and offer all the different ways I deal with it. 99% of the time the reaction I get is "jeez, that's a lot of work, money......... eh, I don't care THAT much".
Long story short, it's not any one particular category of focus that makes all the difference. You can get away with a LOT of less than ideal methods and still make beer that you find drinkable.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
I think its a waste of time to compare Coors ,Budweiser and Miller to anything we're all brewing.
We've all found our way here by the enjoyment of a homebrewed beer, whether it be a clone or one-off recipe. We all have our own little ways ,quirks and methods of reaching said homebrewed beer in our own homes,garages,driveways and basements. You do you and your beer, I'll do mine and my beer.
I'd like to do a side by side of a AG (kettle and tun) beer,a BIAB beer , an extract and a LODO of the same exact beer, can it be done? Maybe. Just to see or taste the actual difference. The variant would be the level of technology ,the water chemistry and of course the individual brewer themselves. lets throw keg vs bottles of the same batches too...why not ,right?
we could all sit around and drink each others beers and talk about politics ,climate change ,sports teams and whether or not the earth is flat.
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Well said.
I believe there's a significant dissonance thing among many of those who argue against lodo, besides the fact that many of those don't know what they're talking about.
We all have invested time, effort, money, and attention to fine tuning our brewing processes to produce decent beer. The learning curve, sometimes, is long. To accept that LODO might be a thing, and then potentially adopt it, we'd have to accept/admit that the time, effort, money, and attention we put into where we are now is a wasted, sunk cost, as there may be a better way.
I felt that to some extent when I tried BIAB. I'd spent all this time dialing in my system with a traditional mash tun, getting temps right, and so on, and now you say there's an easier way? What about all that knowledge I developed? I just have to throw that away?
Then there's the tacit, perhaps unconscious, awareness that there *will* be a learning curve with any new approach. I personally find that somewhat painful, and I have to acknowledge that with a new approach my beer, the first time or two, might not be excellent. That pain is, fortunately, balanced against the joy of learning something new.
Is it the case that this dissonance, in many of the anti-LODO crowd choosing to denigrate LODO, is their psychologically more satisfying conclusion? If one can deny its validity, then one doesn't have to change anything!
Some of my beer has also been, to use your term, Epic. But some flavors haven't been all that enjoyable. I've brewed a Czech pils with a punch of flavor unlike anything I've ever experienced. Others raved about it, too. But I don't care for it all that much.
It's sort of like the oxidized beer thing--some cannot easily perceive oxidation so they may say "it doesn't matter." Well, it doesn't--to them. Same, I believe, with LODO approaches. It produces a very different beer, with very different flavors in some cases. But that may not be a good thing, depending on one's palate. We like what we like.
If someone has tried LODO beers and the flavors just don't ring their bell, then they're drawing a conclusion from a position of knowledge. I'm ok with that. I don't like Belgians, that's just a personal preference thing.
But when people oppose the technique when they have no direct knowledge of it...well, there's only one reason for that behavior that makes sense to me.
bobeer
Fermentation Specalist
I think the "It factor" in traditional German lagers comes from decoction mashing combined with the water source. Decoction mashing produces caramelized sugars from boiling the thick mash and creates a nice, flavorful, rich malt profile. Personally the proof is the in pudding for me... I'd rather decoction mash my beer over lodo but I can see why people would be willing to experiment with it.
Interesting.
W/R/T the trip to Europe, for me the major reason is to try those German beers in situ, and see what it's all about. I've never done a decoction brew, but now you have me intrigued.
Darn. This weekend I had planned to brew a hazy IPA, using my new method of hop additions to the fermenter. Now you have me thinking about this.
I am not against LODO. I may try it some day, but at present it is not worth the expense of some items to do or the time.
But this is the impression that I get from some of you in the LODO crowd:
If you don't brew LODO you are just inferior.
But this is the impression that I get from some of you in the LODO crowd:
I've never been to Germany, but I live in Montana, where there is a real German brewery (Bayern Brewing in Missoula). They only brew German beer styles and use traditional methods. Both the owner and brewmaster emigrated from Germany where they both had apprenticed at the same brewery.
Most, if not all, of the lagers Bayern brews are decoction mashed. One, a seasonal Doppelbock called Faceplant, uses double decoction mashing. If I had to pick only one beer as the best craft beer I’ve ever had I would probably pick Faceplant.
All of Bayern's beers have a depth of flavor that I haven't experienced in other, more "Americanized" craft beers. None of their beers are highly hopped so the flavors come from the malt and the process. Good stuff.
bobeer
Fermentation Specalist
That is good stuff. I have yet to find a local brewery here that does decoction mashing. There's a German style brewery in town that would be the most obvious to practice it but I've only been there once and wasn't overly impressed with the beer. I just assume they don't but I'll have to ask if I ever find myself in there again. There's a lot of small nano's here and it would be interesting to see if any of them do this lodo stuff or what they have to say about it.
A double decocted dopplebock sounds awesome! I love a good decocted Helles myself!
I agree, there are some who make it appear that you're either LODO, or a loon for not doing it. And that's too bad, I've had a lot of great beer that wasn't produced that way. Further, there's a time and money and effort cost to doing it, and it isn't always clear if it's worth that additional cost.
I'm still somewhat on the fence about it. It makes the brew day longer, and I miss the days of the simplicity and brevity of a good ol' BIAB beer. I want to do a side-by-side comparison, trying to figure out how to best do that with my electric system--and then ferment in a bigmouth bubbler instead of my Spike CF10.
And, of course, it seems to matter less with darker beers; the lighter ones (lagers, etc) seem to produce a more obvious effect. Whether you like that effect...different question.
Still in process....
Bayern's great - slow pour pils all day. Go Grizz!
bierhaus15
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My 2 cents: American equivalents of German beer styles most often have over-exaggerated flavor profiles. German brewers are largely not looking to make hugely flavorful beer by US standards and they have a very narrow range to develop nuance and balance. In that regard, lowdo brewing is useful in that you can achieve balance and complexity from using simple ingredients.
That said, I do not agree with all of the lowdo methods (K/SMB use) or the magical results people claim on the home brew scale, but the elimination of 02 in brewing process is a good thing. There is no reason one cannot see a benefit from reducing 02 beer exposure, especially on the cold side.
Finally, on my last work trip to Germany, I visited a large state owned lowdo brewery that makes a well regarded pils available here in the states and produce the same beer for sale in discount stores, available in 500 ml PET bottles (under a different brand). Both liquids were produced from the same ingredients, on the same lowdo equipment. Same TPO spec. One tastes great and the other is pretty meh. The difference is that one is fermented long and cool and the other warm and fast. In simplest terms, the best lowdo process won't solve the issues of subpar fermentation and 99% of the time, I think people would see more immediate benefits from a dialed in fermentation/yeast handling process than a switch to lowdo mashing/boiling alone.
That said, I do not agree with all of the lowdo methods (K/SMB use) or the magical results people claim on the home brew scale, but the elimination of 02 in brewing process is a good thing. There is no reason one cannot see a benefit from reducing 02 beer exposure, especially on the cold side.
Finally, on my last work trip to Germany, I visited a large state owned lowdo brewery that makes a well regarded pils available here in the states and produce the same beer for sale in discount stores, available in 500 ml PET bottles (under a different brand). Both liquids were produced from the same ingredients, on the same lowdo equipment. Same TPO spec. One tastes great and the other is pretty meh. The difference is that one is fermented long and cool and the other warm and fast. In simplest terms, the best lowdo process won't solve the issues of subpar fermentation and 99% of the time, I think people would see more immediate benefits from a dialed in fermentation/yeast handling process than a switch to lowdo mashing/boiling alone.
Am I wrong or is the easiest way to try LODO beer is to buy a six pack of pretty much any one of the BMC offereings? Especially Bud Miller Coors flagship products? These are all supposed to be LODO right?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
lump42
The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Well this has been a fun and fruitless round of rehashing the same arguments from both sides....
Blazinlow86
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Well said. I agree completely.cheers
https://www.google.com/search?q=cro...6RC2QQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ&biw=412&bih=678&dpr=2.63
If the link works, that basically sums up my sentiment. Sub crossfit with lodo.
If the link works, that basically sums up my sentiment. Sub crossfit with lodo.
Ok folks you can talk about generalized groups of people, as long as you are respectful (you can disagree and still be respectful) but targeting individual posters in a denigrating way is a no-no. Many posts have been deleted (most were responses to offending posts.) Please don't make me have to clean up this thread again, or it may get closed.
Also, moving thread to LoDo forum.
doug293cz
HBT Moderator
Also, moving thread to LoDo forum.
doug293cz
HBT Moderator
OP
OP
GHBWNY
Well-Known Member
"LODO makes a difference."
"I enjoyed the process."
"I like following strict processes..."
"Technically it's probably better beer."
"I just didn't like the beer as much."
So, LODO is a great process. It's just the doggone beer that's the problem!!!
Tyler Hurst
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Boiling deoxygenates the wort I am no organic chemist but I would imagine that the reactions which require oxygen molecules that bond to compounds imparting flavor, could be impacted as oxygen leaves the wort through the boiling process. I’m only guessing but likely through the break if ionic of hydrogen bonds? Again. I’m no professional and purely speculating from what I learned in Orgo101.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Boiling (or any other means of scavenging oxygen) doesn't reverse oxidation.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Only to my tastes. I can see that others would prefer it.
Tyler Hurst
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That’s why I prefaced not being an organic chemist. But, wouldn’t it reduce the chances of oxidation by lowering oxygen content of the wort?
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Yes, low-oxygen brewing is accomplished by eliminating oxygen throughout the brewing and packaging process.
We remove oxygen from the strike water either through boiling or using yeast.
Tyler Hurst
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So do you boil your sparge water before using it also
Boden
Mad Scientist
After reading this thread from the start I have some thoughts.
(I have some* experience in complex chemistry)
Warning: Stream of consciousness ahead.
There’s no such thing as best, only preference exists.
That said
Reducing oxygen from all water used will have some effect on flavonoids and other reactive molecules. Good or bad... depends on what you want to accomplish.
You could go so far as to mill the grains in a argon jacketed mill directly into degassed H2O.
You could roast the grains in a oxygen free oven. That would change some of the chemistry.
(Below is not about oxygen but in the same realm of modifying/ retaining flavors/ smells)
Keeping the “Boil” temp between 170-185F would help keep some of the more temperature sensitive flavonoids from evaporating away. But you might want those to go away... so depends.
Using a cool condenser plate over the mash and boil to capture and reintroduce aromatics would help keep flavors in the brew. But you might want those to go away... so depends.
Seems like I’m going to have to simultaneously brew (insert large number here) beers simultaneously in the lab only changing one variable for each recipe.
( Not going to happen. There are millions of variables possible )
Wait a moment... like all great complex chemistry equations the answer must be... It depends on just how far down the minutia hole you have time and money to go.
*= a lot
(I have some* experience in complex chemistry)
Warning: Stream of consciousness ahead.
There’s no such thing as best, only preference exists.
That said
Reducing oxygen from all water used will have some effect on flavonoids and other reactive molecules. Good or bad... depends on what you want to accomplish.
You could go so far as to mill the grains in a argon jacketed mill directly into degassed H2O.
You could roast the grains in a oxygen free oven. That would change some of the chemistry.
(Below is not about oxygen but in the same realm of modifying/ retaining flavors/ smells)
Keeping the “Boil” temp between 170-185F would help keep some of the more temperature sensitive flavonoids from evaporating away. But you might want those to go away... so depends.
Using a cool condenser plate over the mash and boil to capture and reintroduce aromatics would help keep flavors in the brew. But you might want those to go away... so depends.
Seems like I’m going to have to simultaneously brew (insert large number here) beers simultaneously in the lab only changing one variable for each recipe.
( Not going to happen. There are millions of variables possible )
Wait a moment... like all great complex chemistry equations the answer must be... It depends on just how far down the minutia hole you have time and money to go.
*= a lot
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Boden
Mad Scientist
Thank you, being that I am definitely not neurotypical that makes sense.
I could post something along the lines of
“help, I added yeast pre boil and it’s not doing anything in the fermenter!!!“
but I crossed that line ~40 years ago.
This subject (low oxygen brewing) seems quite interesting but I’m having a hard time figuring out what y’all are talking about. This thread seems like a game of move the goalposts.
Degassing the water pre introduction makes sense. It removes one potential reaction in the mash. Could be good or bad or irrelevant depending on what you want.
Parallel testing would answer if it mattered or not for one recipe.
Global statements would be pointless.
I like it here.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
That made me laugh! You'd be surprised (or perhaps you wouldn't) what gets asked sometimes.
Unfortunately there was a lot of 'elitism' and 'belittling' from some of the low oxygen brewers (then termed LoDo) early on in it's development (and some now as well), which now means some conventional brewers react to any low oxygen brewers in the same way - assuming all of them are condescending - so it ends up being attack from both sides. It means that all (that I've seen anyway) LoDo threads end up quite heated. Rather than being seen as another technique that can be employed to get a different flavour profile, it's seen as a divisive issue. It's a shame, because it certainly does give a different beer to what is produced conventionally, whether better or worse (according to an individuals taste). As you said, oxygen in the water will have an effect on flavonoids and other reactive molecules.
Now all you have to do is combine your chemistry knowledge with the brewing knowledge that's already out there.
Here's a list of references, if you're interested in reading:
http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/
Nubiwan
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Off topic but yeah,sour beers, what's that about anyway? Someone tried a lager and lime (a popular drink in U.K. for years) and then years later, this!
Awful stuff, sour beer. I contend you can't like regular beer, if you regularly drink sours.
Nubiwan
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One word- Brulosphy. I'm gonna check see if they done any LODO XBmts. Or is it LoDO? LoDOLThank you, being that I am definitely not neurotypical that makes sense.
I could post something along the lines of
“help, I added yeast pre boil and it’s not doing anything in the fermenter!!!“
but I crossed that line ~40 years ago.
This subject (low oxygen brewing) seems quite interesting but I’m having a hard time figuring out what y’all are talking about. This thread seems like a game of move the goalposts.
Degassing the water pre introduction makes sense. It removes one potential reaction in the mash. Could be good or bad or irrelevant depending on what you want.
Parallel testing would answer if it mattered or not for one recipe.
Global statements would be pointless.
I like it here.
Nubiwan
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And here it is:
Good honest investigation of LODO v standard brewing techniques. I have used Brulosophy site experiments to verify much of my own brewing practices, and weed out some of the hocus pocus around what can be a pretty simple process.
http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/
Here is another discussion.
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/the-infamous-low-oxygen-sensory-analysis/
I do BIAB. I also bottle. Not sure I can incorporate any useful LODO practices into my regime. I'd be intrigued to perhaps try pre boiling my water, but the LODO exponents seem to suggest you have to go the whole hog.
I might give my next batch a preboil for the hell of it, as the mash is surely where flavour is imparted from the grain. Can't hurt.
Good honest investigation of LODO v standard brewing techniques. I have used Brulosophy site experiments to verify much of my own brewing practices, and weed out some of the hocus pocus around what can be a pretty simple process.
http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/
Here is another discussion.
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/the-infamous-low-oxygen-sensory-analysis/
I do BIAB. I also bottle. Not sure I can incorporate any useful LODO practices into my regime. I'd be intrigued to perhaps try pre boiling my water, but the LODO exponents seem to suggest you have to go the whole hog.
I might give my next batch a preboil for the hell of it, as the mash is surely where flavour is imparted from the grain. Can't hurt.
Die_Beerery
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Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
If you're going to go to the effort of boiling your mash water, you might as well dose your mash with NaMETA (cheap and easy) and keep splashing to an absolute minimum to try to keep the benefits of the O2 free mash. IMO though, you'd be better off tightening up cold side processes first.
w8av
Goose
I want to add to this thread. I do not want to dis any of the LODO guys. They have a valid reason for what they are doing and I respect that.
However, most commercial breweries use a spray ball mounted a couple feet above the grain bed to sparge with and it works fine for them. The brewery I worked at for 6 years did that will no ill effects on the finished beer. As has been mentioned, the time you really need to worry about O2 is post fermentation and during packaging.
I sparge here at home with a high tempertaure hose that lies on top of the mash bed and gravity feed sparge liquor into the mash tun that way (got the idea from a SABCO BrewMagic user. My efficiency numbers are good and I don't have any off flavors from hot side aeration (I have seen numerous presentations on HSA and just about everyone agrees that hot side aeration doesn't really effect the wort). Besides, you are going to boil the wort anyway which will drive off any disolved O2.
Just my $0.02 worth
However, most commercial breweries use a spray ball mounted a couple feet above the grain bed to sparge with and it works fine for them. The brewery I worked at for 6 years did that will no ill effects on the finished beer. As has been mentioned, the time you really need to worry about O2 is post fermentation and during packaging.
I sparge here at home with a high tempertaure hose that lies on top of the mash bed and gravity feed sparge liquor into the mash tun that way (got the idea from a SABCO BrewMagic user. My efficiency numbers are good and I don't have any off flavors from hot side aeration (I have seen numerous presentations on HSA and just about everyone agrees that hot side aeration doesn't really effect the wort). Besides, you are going to boil the wort anyway which will drive off any disolved O2.
Just my $0.02 worth
