Ordinary Bitter Tastes Watery - Any Ideas?

[CGish]

I brewed an Ordinary Bitter from Brewing Classic Styles, page 117. Recipe was:

11 Gallon Batch:

13 lbs Marris Otter
1.1 lbs 120L
0.54 lbs Special Roast
0.45 lbs Acid Malt
1 lbs rice hulls

Reverse Osmosis Water
11 grams Gypsum
6 grams Calcium Chloride

2.3 oz EKG 60 min
0.7 oz EKG 30 min
2.0 oz EKG 1.0 min

WLP002 Yeast​

Brewed on 6/15/15

Yeast starter was done ahead of time and starter size was appropriate for the batch.

Mash was 90 minutes at 152 degrees. I use a recirculating BIAB setup (hence the rice hulls). Boil was 90 minutes. Cooled rapidly with a CFC. Recirculated until down to 100 (about ten minutes), then ran through the CFC and splashed into the fermentor at 65 degrees. Wort tasted good at the end of brewing.

Starting Gravity was 1.040.

Fermentation temp was 65 degrees, measured via a thermowell in the fermentation bucket, done in a fermentation chamber controlled by a BrewPi. (I set the mode to 'Beer Constant' and the temp to 65 degrees.)

Got busy in school, so didn't bottle until 9/3/15. Tasted very good going into the bottles. Flat, but ordinary bitters are not highly carbed.

Final Gravity was 1.010.

ABV is 3.9%

Carbed to 1.7 volumes. (BDS Recipe only calls for 1 to 1.5 volumes, but I have found I need to run just a little over on my system, hence the 1.7 volumes.)

Sat three and a half weeks in my basement at approximately 75 degrees.

Opened the first bottle on 10/1/15 and found watery beer. No bad flavors, just tasteless. A little flatter than I expected. There is a little malt flavor at the end, but not anything like there was at bottling time.

Took a couple bottles to the brew club tonight and let some more experienced brewers taste the beer. Their impressions were the same as mine. No off flavors, just watery and tasteless.

I see in my searches on the forum that some people have WLP002 go bad in the bottle. The gravity drops, the carbonation skyrockets, and off flavors develop. That is not the case here. No jump in carbonation or off flavors.

Another problem is lack of time to let the beer carb, but it has been five and a half weeks at this point.

As an added kink to the problem, a porter brewed on the same day, with the same water, fermented in the same chamber, inoculated with yeast from the same starter pack, and bottled on the same day came out fine. It tastes dark, rich, slightly roasty, smooth, and properly carbed - exactly like I would expect a porter fermented with WLP002 to taste.

Thoughts? Ideas? Does WLP002 sometimes take a long time to carb up in the bottle?

Thank You,
Cody

 

[lowtones84]

WLP002 can be a little interesting for bottle conditioning, but it usually works out fine for me. My guess is just the fact that it's a sub 4% beer finishing at 1.010. I know that's what you want for an ordinary bitter, but smaller beers like that can come out tasting a little watery.

I brew a lot of bitters myself, and it can be a challenge. Something that helps me is using 1/2 lb. of flaked barley or a little carapils, even if it's cheating. Upping the amount of crystal malt just a tiny bit could help too, or mashing a touch higher, though 152 seems like it would be fine to me.

The time in primary is also a little concerning just because of it being a low OG beer. To be honest for my ordinary bitters and milds I don't really let them sit in the primary for more than about 10 days. That stuff is always best consumed fresh, and even bottling I'm usually starting to consume it 20 days after brewing. Hope some of this helps, and good luck!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The 90min mash will thin it out a bit. A 60min mash with a mash-out (or quickly brought to a boil) will leave more body.

Also, Jamil notes with the recipe that excessive CO2 can make it seem extra thin, but an extra 0.2vols shouldn't matter too much.

 

[TheBigLebrewsk1]

It's the acid malt, I accidentally used half of what you are and I got a watery IPA.

 

[FarmerTed]

Flaked barley can really help with improving mouth-feel in beers like that.

 

[eddiewould]

Brew an ESB next time.

Sorry couldn't resist

 

[joshesmusica]

It's the acid malt, I accidentally used half of what you are and I got a watery IPA.

Well then it can't necessarily be attributed to the acid malt. It could however be due to possibly a low pH. If your pH dipped too low and you mashed at a low temp, then it's likely you only really had the beta-amylase working, which means mostly simple sugars, which will give the feeling of slightly less body.

 

[joshesmusica]

I'm not expert on water, but I'm wondering why the mineral additions and the acid malt additions? Did you do this based on a recipe suggestion, or based on your own water profile, and subsequent research?

I would think with a malt-forward beer, you would want to be aiming for a mash pH of 5.4-5.5. What did your pH end up being? I recently brewed an ESB (I know not the same style, but along the same idea), and I have basically RO water, and I added some acidulated malt, enough to bring it down to that range, but no other mineral salts or anything like that. It came out wonderful.

As for the mash, I agree that you could have a shorter mash time. I would even venture down into the 40-45 minute range. Also, another thing that I think will really help such a low abv beer is actually mashing even higher. At the higher temps, you will get the long-chain sugars. These contribute to the body/mouthfeel of the beer, but compared to the simple sugars are not as sweet-tasting.

Lastly, another theory I've been hearing lately is that a higher efficiency, and therefore a lower amount of grains in the mash, can actually lead to less malt flavor. The logic behind it actually makes sense: more malt in the mash, more malt flavor in the beer. The malt flavor is not necessarily coming from the starches that are converted to sugars, but more from the husks. So I would also give aiming for a lower efficiency a try (since you're doing BIAB, go for a crush-size like you would have for a normal mash setup), especially since it's so low abv that you don't have very much malt to begin with.

 

[AnthonyUK]

In my own tests trying to replicate low ABV (3-3.5%) beers with good body I mash high and short e.g. 68-70°c for 60 mins with no sparging and regular grain crush as I also BIAB. These steps along with some speciality malts including rye and dextrine (Carapils) have made for a very acceptable beer.

 

[Hanglow]

Bitters are usually best drunk between 2-8 weeks after being brewed, especially at that strength. It should still be decent enough though,

I'd always use some unmalted grains, flaked barley is a good suggestion as FarmerTed mentioned although some people don't like the taste. Torrified wheat is used a lot instead, gives a good head and mouthfeel but is more neutral flavoured

 

[joshesmusica]

Bitters are usually best drunk between 2-8 weeks after being brewed, especially at that strength.

Traditionally, yeah, sure. But why? Not drinking it fresh is certainly not going to make it "thinner." Unless one is drinking it before clarifying it, at which point all of the "body" is coming from yeast in suspension. But I highly doubt that's the case, as wlp002 is a highly flocculent strain.

 

[Hanglow]

True it won't affect the mouthfeel, but he did say it was tasteless as well, and bitter is quite a delicate beer really

It's mainly drunk that young as the isinglass used to fine casks goes off after a couple of months, which is admittedly a moot point for the OP and most homebrewers

 

[CGish]

Thank you to everyone who has responded. Reading through the responses, I suspect that the mash length is what killed me on this batch. I have been using 90 minute mashes for just about everything, but this style would benefit from a shorter time period. A shorter time between brewing and drinking may have helped, but life doesn't always cooperate

I appreciate all the thoughts. I will try this again with a small batch, a short mash, and post the results here.

Thank You,
Cody

 

[CGish]

I'm not expert on water, but I'm wondering why the mineral additions and the acid malt additions? Did you do this based on a recipe suggestion, or based on your own water profile, and subsequent research?

I would think with a malt-forward beer, you would want to be aiming for a mash pH of 5.4-5.5. What did your pH end up being? I recently brewed an ESB (I know not the same style, but along the same idea), and I have basically RO water, and I added some acidulated malt, enough to bring it down to that range, but no other mineral salts or anything like that. It came out wonderful.

As for the mash, I agree that you could have a shorter mash time. I would even venture down into the 40-45 minute range. Also, another thing that I think will really help such a low abv beer is actually mashing even higher. At the higher temps, you will get the long-chain sugars. These contribute to the body/mouthfeel of the beer, but compared to the simple sugars are not as sweet-tasting.

Lastly, another theory I've been hearing lately is that a higher efficiency, and therefore a lower amount of grains in the mash, can actually lead to less malt flavor. The logic behind it actually makes sense: more malt in the mash, more malt flavor in the beer. The malt flavor is not necessarily coming from the starches that are converted to sugars, but more from the husks. So I would also give aiming for a lower efficiency a try (since you're doing BIAB, go for a crush-size like you would have for a normal mash setup), especially since it's so low abv that you don't have very much malt to begin with.

I don't have a PH meter, so I have been using the simplified water thread here on HBT for my water. Just starting with RO and simple additions has improved my beers a great deal. This is the first real problem I have had since starting that process.

As for the acid malt, I was worried that there was not enough dark grains in the recipe, so I added it. The 120L and Special Roast constituted about 10% of the grain bill. Later reading indicated the acid malt was likely not necessary, so that may be part of the problem.

As for the rest of your post, I think you have a good set of suggestions. My mash was too long and my crush was too fine for this style. I hit 78% efficiency on this batch. I have been double crushing my grain in a corona mill, so I will go with one pass next time. I know a single pass will drop the efficiency to approximately 68%. That with a short mash should produce a better small beer.

Thank you for the input,
Cody

 

[joshesmusica]

I don't have a PH meter, so I have been using the simplified water thread here on HBT for my water. Just starting with RO and simple additions has improved my beers a great deal. This is the first real problem I have had since starting that process.



As for the acid malt, I was worried that there was not enough dark grains in the recipe, so I added it. The 120L and Special Roast constituted about 10% of the grain bill. Later reading indicated the acid malt was likely not necessary, so that may be part of the problem.



As for the rest of your post, I think you have a good set of suggestions. My mash was too long and my crush was too fine for this style. I hit 78% efficiency on this batch. I have been double crushing my grain in a corona mill, so I will go with one pass next time. I know a single pass will drop the efficiency to approximately 68%. That with a short mash should produce a better small beer.



Thank you for the input,

Cody

I would say not to be doing any additions until you really understand what you're doing.

 

[dyqik]

One thing I can't see discussed above is what temperature you are serving it at. Fresh from the fridge it will be thin and tasteless - it needs to be served and drunk at cellar temps - about 55-60F. This will also help with the slight over-carbing (1.7 is too high, 1.2 vols is a better target).

 

[stpug]

^^Yes, serving a little warmer than most beers is needed to not subdue the malt character.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Another thing you might like to try with smaller English beers is thick mashing. Apparently it's common practice with milds and ordinary bitters to give more body.

 

[CGish]

One thing I can't see discussed above is what temperature you are serving it at. Fresh from the fridge it will be thin and tasteless - it needs to be served and drunk at cellar temps - about 55-60F. This will also help with the slight over-carbing (1.7 is too high, 1.2 vols is a better target).

It is not overcarbed. I know the 1.7 indicates it should be, but my beers always come out with lower than expected carbonation. I have learned to run on the high end of recommended to get the carbonation I expect. This batch is even worse than normal. There are very few bubbles and no lacing at all. It is not quite still, but almost. It has been a while since I had a commercial Ordinary Bitter, but I think there is usually a little carbonation and lacing, even if it has no head. This just has none.

^^Yes, serving a little warmer than most beers is needed to not subdue the malt character.

Good idea, I will try this with a few bottles.

Another thing you might like to try with smaller English beers is thick mashing. Apparently it's common practice with milds and ordinary bitters to give more body.

A thick mash would be the opposite of BIAB, which is what this was. This idea coupled with a courser crush and shorter mash would likely make a big difference on this beer.

Thank You,
Cody

 

[dyqik]

It is not overcarbed. I know the 1.7 indicates it should be, but my beers always come out with lower than expected carbonation. I have learned to run on the high end of recommended to get the carbonation I expect. This batch is even worse than normal. There are very few bubbles and no lacing at all. It is not quite still, but almost. It has been a while since I had a commercial Ordinary Bitter, but I think there is usually a little carbonation and lacing, even if it has no head. This just has none.

No noticeable bubbles and no head is pretty much correct carbonation for an OB poured carefully from a bottle. Any head on commercial examples is from being poured through a sparkler on a hand pump (evil things*... ) that puts fake foam on top (and removes a little more carbonation). Even on a regular handpump there shouldn't be more than the faintest trace of foam. And an OB shouldn't be seen anywhere near kegs.

This is about right:

This is wrong for a bitter carefully poured from a bottle, and was probably done with a sparkler:

As an aside, if you aren't tasting sweetness from the priming sugar on your other "undercarbed" batches' bottles, then the CO2 must be being produced, but either escaping, or not making it into solution. Check the fit of your bottle caps, and make sure you are refrigerating the bottles for several days before serving to allow the CO2 in the headspace to go into solution.

*this is a subject of intense debate between Northerners and Southerners in the UK. I'm Southern. But for a bottle conditioned bitter, you won't get the sparkler effect anyway.

 

[CGish]

This is about right:

That has about three to four times the foam that mine do if I rough pour them from a couple inches above the glass. If I pour them gently down the side of the glass, the only indication of carbonation will be a few rising bubbles when you look through beer in the glass.

As an aside, if you aren't tasting sweetness from the priming sugar on your other "undercarbed" batches' bottles, then the CO2 must be being produced, but either escaping, or not making it into solution. Check the fit of your bottle caps, and make sure you are refrigerating the bottles for several days before serving to allow the CO2 in the headspace to go into solution.

I know these are all valid points, and have considered all of them at various times. This present batch excepted, I always a nice get a nice fizzz sound went I pop the cap. (and I still get a small fizzz sound with this batch - they have some carbonation) I have used two hand cappers and one bench top capper with no difference in the results. It seems unlikely that the caps are the issue, since this is an ongoing reality through several cappers, different cap suppliers, multiple batches, and a wide variety of bottles. I try to keep enough in the fridge so it it 3+ days before I drink a bottle. I don't taste inappropriate residual sweetness, and the more experienced brewers at the brewing club have never complained about that kind of flavor. I know everything you point out is true, but I have found I need to run a little over to get proper amounts. I don't know why, and I know one of the things you list is the most likely culprit, but I have learned to live with the issue by running on the high end of carbonation for the style.

Thank You,
Cody

 

[lowtones84]

Could it be that you're ending up with more in the bottling bucket than you're estimating? Are your batches evenly carbed across the board by bottle, all lacking? If so, the manner in which you clean the glassware could be an issue as well.

I know some will disagree, but I still think age has a lot to do with the result. A beer that low OG is not intended to age. You brewed it in June, right? I would have consumed all of that batch (with a little help of my friends, of course) a month ago. Small beers simply do not age as well. I know that life gets in the way sometimes, and that's understandable, but I do think it's a factor to consider. Why do you think it's near impossible to get good commercial english bitters here? The amount of time it takes to ship and transport them does not treat the product well.

 

[AnthonyUK]

I don't think this is a style ideally suited to bottling but you can counteract slight overcarbing by using a pocket beer engine

 

[CGish]

I don't think this is a style ideally suited to bottling but you can counteract slight overcarbing by using a pocket beer engine

Hopefully dyqik doesn't see this!

Right or wrong, I will have to try this out.

Thanks,
Cody

 

[CGish]

Could it be that you're ending up with more in the bottling bucket than you're estimating? Are your batches evenly carbed across the board by bottle, all lacking?

Yes, all bottles are evenly carbed. I had a couple batches in the beginning that were uneven, so I always give the bottling bucket a gentle stir. I haven't had an uneven batch in a long time.

I know some will disagree, but I still think age has a lot to do with the result. A beer that low OG is not intended to age. You brewed it in June, right? I would have consumed all of that batch (with a little help of my friends, of course) a month ago. Small beers simply do not age as well. I know that life gets in the way sometimes, and that's understandable, but I do think it's a factor to consider. Why do you think it's near impossible to get good commercial english bitters here? The amount of time it takes to ship and transport them does not treat the product well.

All good points, and it adds to the consensus in the thread. I just did not handle this beer correctly from the crush on. Crush too fine, mash too long, sat in the fermentor too long, and it now older than it should be. Only a little degradation from each step would seriously harm a beer this small.

Thank You,
Cody