Off Flavors from Rye?

[mrcej23]

I recently made an IPA that had 2 lbs of malted rye out of the total 15 lb grain bill. Mashed all the grains at 152 for an hour in the cooler and double batch sparged as usual. After primary and a week of dry hopping, the beer had this awful harsh bitterness toward the finish... so much so that it was undrinkable. After aging a few weeks it has gotten a lot better and is even pretty decent, but still has a bit of that harshness at the end. I wanted to use rye because I've noticed that a lot of the beers I like have rye, even if its not enough to be considered a rye IPA. I also know that rye is notorious for a spicy, peppery flavor, but I didn't expect it to be this much. Are there certain steps you have to take in the mash when using rye? Should I have used flaked rye instead? Did I use too much? Or is this harshness most likely not from the rye at all? This was the batch where I accidentally pitched at 90 before placing in my fridge set to 70.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I don't think it's the rye. I'm literally drinking an IPA I brewed that is very close to what you described (2lbs rye, at about 14lbs total). Honestly, next time I will use more rye as I'm not really getting it in the flavor really. I can tell it added a silky mouth feel though. I didn't do anything special on brew day...

What was your recipe?

 

[Tribe Fan]

What water are you using?

Had a similar problem using hard well water high in iron.

 

[mrcej23]

What was your recipe?

12 lb 2 row
2 lb rye
10 oz crystal 60
2 oz simcoe @ 90
1 oz simcoe @ 45
0.5 oz simcoe @ 10
0.5 oz citra @ 10
1 oz simcoe @ 0
1 oz citra @ 0
1.5 oz Simcoe dry hop 7 days
1.5 oz citra dry hop 7 days

Wyeast 1056 with starter, but pitched at 90F accidentally

It’s a recipe i designed and I’m new at this

What water are you using?

Had a similar problem using hard well water high in iron.

Whole Foods bottled drinking water. Next go around I’m going to actually control my water profile.

 

[thehaze]

It's not the Rye malt. I've used 50% Rye malt in a Pale Ale recently and I did not get any of the flavours you got. Rye lends mouthfeel and a slightly spicy, earthy flavour, which works well with resiny/dank/citrussy hops.

 

[Beer666]

As above. I made a 50% rye kolsch and did not get any weird flavours. I used a soft water profile.

 

[madscientist451]

The recipe above indicates that you used a pound of hops in the kettle?
Perhaps that's the source of the "awful harsh bitterness" you are describing?
Pitching your yeast at 90F may be contributing to some flavor problems, but if you are going to re-brew, maybe try backing off some of the hops.
I typed your recipe into Brewers friend and the calculated IBUs are 279.

 

[Tribe Fan]

The 10 oz of crystal 60 are not hops, that's grain. Still, it's a lot of hops.

What was your batch size?

For 5 gal, I'm getting 1.074 OG, 7.6% ABV and 132 IBU. That's a lot of hops, before dry hopping 3 oz. That's also a big gravity beer and pitched at 90 is not the greatest. That's almost double the maximum style guidelines for IBU's in a Rye IPA according to Beersmith. So you should have a pretty bitter beer, and it would make sense that it dissipates somewhat over time.

If it were me, I would do the following:
- Use distilled or RO water, although I don't think bottled water is really your problem here
- Cut the hop bill back pretty significantly. 1 oz of Simcoe at 90 and .5 oz at 45 gets you to 73 IBU with the rest of the hop bill the same. 75 is the max style guideline.
- Make sure the sparge water is at 170 so you don't pull tannins out of the grains
- Make a yeast starter and pitch at fermentation temps.

I'm not an expert, others may have better advice. But I use flaked rye all the time and have never had a problem with it specifically. My problems were elsewhere.

 

[bucketnative]

The recipe above indicates that you used a pound of hops in the kettle?
Perhaps that's the source of the "awful harsh bitterness" you are describing?
Pitching your yeast at 90F may be contributing to some flavor problems, but if you are going to re-brew, maybe try backing off some of the hops.
I typed your recipe into Brewers friend and the calculated IBUs are 279.

He's got 10 oz of Crystal 60 malt, rather than 10 oz of Crystal hops @ 60 min. The way the ingredients line up, it's a trick of the eye.

But, the hopping was over the top. When I plugged in the recipe to Brewer's Friend, the IBU were at 140 (assuming Simcoe was at the 12.7 % AA used on the site).

@mrcej23 should treat this as a learning experience regarding alpha acid conversion and hopping profiles. This was definitely not the rye.

 

[DownHillonWater]

The last two posts have it right I make a Rye Amber that is 50% Rye malt that clocks in under 20 IBU. The rye's spiciness accentutes hop character significantly IMHO.

 

[dmtaylor]

It's not the rye. Rye isn't actually spicy or peppery. I use a lot of rye, up to 40% of the grist even, and never have a harshness problem. Maybe you just hate Simcoe like I do.

 

[kh54s10]

I haven't put the recipe into a calculator, but I think the 2 ounces of Simcoe for 90 minutes and another ounce for 45 minutes would make a very bitter beer. That and pitching at 90 degrees didn't help. Even cooling to 70 might not have been cool enough. In a fridge set at 70 degrees the fermentation temperature could get in the range of 75 to 80 degrees.

 

[mrcej23]

Thanks for all the helpful replies guys.

What was your batch size?

Its a 5 gallon batch.

Maybe you just hate Simcoe like I do.

I actually love simcoe. My goal for this beer was to let the simcoe shine and have the citra there to round it out, though it kinda came out opposite.

In a fridge set at 70 degrees the fermentation temperature could get in the range of 75 to 80 degrees.

I have my probe fastened so that it is touching the fermentor itself, with a sock to insulate it from air. Shouldn't this keep the beer pretty much at the temp I have my inkbird set at?

So what I'm hearing is that the problem is overhopping which created high IBUs. I know that beersmith is pretty accurate but this doesn't make any sense to me as I've brewed a Pliny the Elder clone which had more hops than my recipe above, with the Columbus in Pliny having an aa of 13.9% and simcoe only having 13%. The Pliny came out pretty bitter but not anything like this one. I actually love extremely hoppy, high IBU beers such as Pliny, Stone's IPAs and similar ones from the west coast. The flavor I'm talking about in my current beer almost seems like its not hop bitterness... its a very weird unpleasant flavor and kinda reminds me of rubbing alcohol or something medicinal. Could this be just from pitching at 90 and it probably taking several hours to cool in my fridge, potentially even after fermentation began?

Also, does it matter if I use regular malted rye or flaked rye?

 

[kh54s10]

Your cooling with the Inkbird method is good though for most yeasts I go lower than 70. I look up the optimum temperatures and select the middle of the range.

Pitching at 90 was probably a factor. It really depends on how long it took to get to 70 and how quick the fermentation started. The longer the overlap - fermenting warm- the worse any off flavors would be.

Don't know if this is relevant or not.

17. Phenolic
*This is another flavor that could easily be broken down into several different components, but we will just do an overview here.

• Perceived As:
  Bitter, spicy, herbal, drying, tea-like, clove-like, smoky, band-aid, medicinal.
  
  
• Approx. Flavor Threshold:
  0.05 – 0.55 mg/l
  
  
• Importance:
  This is usually considered an off-flavor, but can make up a small element of the character in stouts and other ales. They are also a major contributor in German wheat beers.
  
  
• Effect of Aging:
  Won’t really increase or decrease, if it’s in the beer it’s generally there, at that level, for good.
  
  
• Caused By:
  Can be caused by wild or specialty yeasts, contaminations, Chlorophenol presence in tap water, chlorine sanitizers, and improper sparging technique.
  

How To Avoid/Control:

• Use yeasts that will produce fewer phenols.
• If brewing with tap water, be sure to filter it first.
• Either rinse well after using chlorine sanitizers or use non-chlorine sanitizers, such as Star San.
• Use pure yeast strains and take proper precautions to ovoid wild yeast contamination during fermentation.
• Don’t over-crush your grain.
• Don’t collect wort below 1.008 SG.
• Keep sparge above 6.0pH and temperature below 168°F.

How To Practice:
Using the “Basic Practice Guidelines” you could add small measured amounts of clove extract to get the spicy clove-like element, while adding Chloraseptic throat spray will give more of a medicinal flavor.

 

[rhys333]

I recently made an IPA that had 2 lbs of malted rye out of the total 15 lb grain bill. Mashed all the grains at 152 for an hour in the cooler and double batch sparged as usual. After primary and a week of dry hopping, the beer had this awful harsh bitterness toward the finish... so much so that it was undrinkable. After aging a few weeks it has gotten a lot better and is even pretty decent, but still has a bit of that harshness at the end. I wanted to use rye because I've noticed that a lot of the beers I like have rye, even if its not enough to be considered a rye IPA. I also know that rye is notorious for a spicy, peppery flavor, but I didn't expect it to be this much. Are there certain steps you have to take in the mash when using rye? Should I have used flaked rye instead? Did I use too much? Or is this harshness most likely not from the rye at all? This was the batch where I accidentally pitched at 90 before placing in my fridge set to 70.

If the harsh bitterness isn't from hopping, then I'm willing to bet its due to your mash pH being too high resulting in tannin extraction. I'm almost certain this is the issue, and I recommend exploring this before anything else. The brewing water chemistry primer in the Brew Science section is a good place to start. From there, you can start playing with the brewing software. That bitterness issue should disappear and your beer should improve drastically.

 

[couchsending]

Bitterness at the back of the throat is not related to kettle hopping or IBUs. If done correctly you perceive that at the front of your pallet.

It’s not the rye either

It’s more likely your process/water chemistry.

 

[mrpercussion80]

I was reading the comments above, I think the hop schedule could have been a factor, but what you described sounds like an infection or off flavor developed by stressed yeast. I had this happen once when I had a stuck fermentation, and it took me like 5 days before I could get more yeast & repitch. (I have always kept extra on hand in case this happens again). It was the worst beer I ever made!

As for the hop schedule it seems a little aggressive to early in the boil. You get more bitterness out of the hops the longer you boil it, and more of the aroma and flavor the less time it boils, I have found some New England IPA recipes that add the majority of the hops after flame out, & dry hopping, which does not contribute to the IBU’s if you run it through a calculator.

As for rye I’ve used it several times and can honestly say it’s only ever enhanced the flavor, & never came through any where near as much as you think might have happened to you.