O2 Tank w/regulator

[Morrey]

Couple of years ago I bought an O2 regulator (Northern Brewer) and .5 micron wand to oxygenate wort. The small red O2 tanks from Home Depot are $10 plus tax so say $11 each. I have tried to be conservative using the O2 but I rarely get more than 7 or 8 beers from the tank. I may be using too much but it is fairly hard to judge.

Anyway, a buddy of mine owns a respiratory supply company and I approached him to see about larger tanks. He has a used E tank that holds (I think) 660 liters of O2. I am semi guessing here, but would I want to set the flow rate on the regulator to 1 liter per minute? If this was the case, I'd oxygenate for 1 minute set at 1 liter per minute for a 5.5G batch. Right?

Based on this math I may not need an O2 refill for quite some time. Plus he says a refill is only $6 so I don't have much to lose here. (He is all but giving me the tank and regulator)

Just checking to see about the flow rate and length of time. Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

In Yeast the authors recommend 2 minutes at 1 lpm through a .5u stone.
fwiw, I use 4 minutes at .5 lpm through the same stone.

I think an "E" cylinder is 20 cubic feet. I have a 40 cubic foot cylinder, I brew close to the annual 200g limit, and usually get a good 18 months out of a fill...

Cheers!

 

[Morrey]

Just out of curiosity, and since you can set your O2 flow rate properly, how much "bubbling" do you see coming from the stone when near the surface. Hopefully I will have the new "metered" setup by next brew day, but curious since I have been winging it by guessing my flow rate.

 

[day_trippr]

Well I don't know how to quantify it.
I use the Williams Brewing CO2 wand and continuously stir the wort into a whirlpool with the stone on the bottom through the whole process.
A fair amount of bubbles still certainly make it to the surface - before a thick foam layer forms obscuring what's going on.

Cheers!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Good info, I missed (or forgot &#128513 that little tidbit in Yeast. I scored a full medical tank w/ regulator a couple of years ago for like $5 at a yard sale but have been guessing on time and rate. I do remember reading that bubbles at the top mean O2 not getting into your beer, so slow and low is better than vigorous bubbling.

 

[IslandLizard]

Just out of curiosity, and since you can set your O2 flow rate properly, how much "bubbling" do you see coming from the stone when near the surface. Hopefully I will have the new "metered" setup by next brew day, but curious since I have been winging it by guessing my flow rate.

At 1/4 l/min I still see some rippling on the surface. The 0.5 micron stone is on the bottom of a brew bucket, connected to a spare keg dip tube. At 1/8 l/min the rippling is minimal, so I give it 8 minutes at 1/8 l/min now, moving the stone to a different location inside the bucket every 30-60 seconds.

 

[MaxStout]

The smaller the bubbles, the more surface area in the interface between O2 and wort. That's the goal, anyway. But no matter how hard you try, a lot of that O2 will surface and not go into solution. Nature of the beast. The stones with smaller pores (i.e., .5 micron vs 2 micron) will help drive more O2 into the wort.

I have a small, 20 cu ft. O2 cylinder, and use William's O2 wand with .5 micron stone. I run it for 60-90 sec. and keep the wand moving around. Works great, and my yeasties are happy.

 

[Morrey]

The smaller the bubbles, the more surface area in the interface between O2 and wort. That's the goal, anyway. But no matter how hard you try, a lot of that O2 will surface and not go into solution. Nature of the beast. The stones with smaller pores (i.e., .5 micron vs 2 micron) will help drive more O2 into the wort.

I have a small, 20 cu ft. O2 cylinder, and use William's O2 wand with .5 micron stone. I run it for 60-90 sec. and keep the wand moving around. Works great, and my yeasties are happy.

Do you use a specific setting for your flow rate such as 1 liter per minute?

I think my setup is going to be similar to yours.....E tank day_trippr thinks is 20 cubic feet and my stone is .5 micron. Based on this, looks like our O2 setup will be alike. I noted there is a dial on the regulator to set the flow rate and it goes up to 15 liters per minute. Not sure how low it goes, but I did see it went down below 1 liter per minute in preset increments.

 

[Morrey]

Ok.....picked the O2 tank up just now. This is a dedicated regulator that seems fixed into the tank. E tank and refills are done on a port built into the regulator.

The settings on the regulator go down to .25 L/min, next is .5 L/min, 1 L/min...and on from there up to 15 L/min.

Logic seems to me (correct me as I am often wrong) that a low delivery rate for a longer period of time would allow the most O2 to diffuse into the wort.

Maybe .5L/min for 2 minutes moving the wand around?

With 660 liters of O2 in this tank, and I use 1 liter per 5G batch, I am set for quite some time.

 

[MaxStout]

Do you use a specific setting for your flow rate such as 1 liter per minute?

I think my setup is going to be similar to yours.....E tank day_trippr thinks is 20 cubic feet and my stone is .5 micron. Based on this, looks like our O2 setup will be alike. I noted there is a dial on the regulator to set the flow rate and it goes up to 15 liters per minute. Not sure how low it goes, but I did see it went down below 1 liter per minute in preset increments.

I don't have a device that displays rate of flow, only a dual gauge displaying PSI. I set it to a few PSI, and go. Therefore, I have no idea how many liters/min. of flow. I plunge the wand into the wort so the stone is at the bottom, and adjust the pressure to the point where there's not much turbulence coming up to the surface. I move the stone around the bottom, so I cover more volume of wort.

 

[mabrungard]

The small red O2 tanks from Home Depot are $10 plus tax so say $11 each. I have tried to be conservative using the O2 but I rarely get more than 7 or 8 beers from the tank. I may be using too much but it is fairly hard to judge.

I'm easily getting double the number of 5 gal batches from the small O2 tanks. However, I use an in-line oxygenator during wort transfer. I am pretty sure I get a high degree of O2 dissolution and that probably avoids wasting the oxygen. I do remember that Jamil cautions against over-oxygenating since he feels that can cause excessive yeast growth that in-turn causes defects like fusel alcohols.

 

[Morrey]

I don't have a device that displays rate of flow, only a dual gauge displaying PSI. I set it to a few PSI, and go. Therefore, I have no idea how many liters/min. of flow. I plunge the wand into the wort so the stone is at the bottom, and adjust the pressure to the point where there's not much turbulence coming up to the surface. I move the stone around the bottom, so I cover more volume of wort.

I put my wand/stone on my new O2 tank (pictured above post #9) while at home for lunch. I did a sort of test to see the delivery rate by submerging the stone into a glass of water and set the flow rate to .25L/m. It looked like an alka seltzer in the water. Bumping to .5L/m obviously doubled the flow and going to 1L/m caused quite a bit of bubbles/activity. The flow rate of .5L/m diffused the O2 gently enough that lots of bubbles clung to the side of the glass, while the turbulence of 1L/m seemed to dislodge the bubbles and fewer of them clung to the sides. I know this is not a great way to determine diffusion ppm, but it was the best I could do with no way to monitor otherwise.

Of course when this stone is oxygenating real wort lots of foam is created making it hard to fully evaluate like I just did with the water. I feel that .5L/m is a pretty solid flow, so I guess this will be my beta test batch setting. 2 minutes should get the job done for 5.5G, so I'll probably stick with .5L/m and bump to 4 minutes for 11G batches.

My friend wouldn't let me pay him so this is a windfall for me with refills costing only $6. I have seen tanks on rolling carts like this for $30 on Craigslist, so I wonder why most folks don't try to get a setup like this to start.

 

[MaxStout]

No matter how hard you try, a certain amount of O2 is going to bubble to the surface and escape. You can only count on a certain percentage of it going into solution. I just view that as the "cost of doing business" and realize I'm going to go through some O2. That's why I like the refillable tanks vs. the throwaways.

 

[h22lude]

Do they make a good regulator with flow gauge for those smaller Bernzomatic bottles?

 

[Morrey]

No matter how hard you try, a certain amount of O2 is going to bubble to the surface and escape. You can only count on a certain percentage of it going into solution. I just view that as the "cost of doing business" and realize I'm going to go through some O2. That's why I like the refillable tanks vs. the throwaways.

Absolutely, same here. For sure we lose some O2 as it escapes the surface area, and as said, knowing not to push the O2 so hard is probably the key here. I honestly feel I was wasting O2 with those red tanks since I didn't know how to control my flow.

Once the basic system is setup and paid for, the oxygen cost in those red throwaways is astronomical in comparison to the cost of oxygen in a refillable tank.

 

[Morrey]

Do they make a good regulator with flow gauge for those smaller Bernzomatic bottles?

I noted that Northern Brewer sells an add on kit that has a flow meter inline with the wand. Looked a bit "awkward" having to fasten the meter to the side of the red bottle, but I suppose it works. If I hadn't been able to secure something like I just did, I'd have probably gone that route.

 

[h22lude]

I noted that Northern Brewer sells an add on kit that has a flow meter inline with the wand. Looked a bit "awkward" having to fasten the meter to the side of the red bottle, but I suppose it works. If I hadn't been able to secure something like I just did, I'd have probably gone that route.

I actually have that. It is very odd to use. You can't attach it to the bottle unless you keep the reg on the bottle. I don't because it will probably leak. So I'd have to put the flow meter on the bottle every time I use it. Just very strange to use. And it isn't very accurate. The ball jumps around a lot. I'm not sure if that is the flow meter or the cheaper regulator. I'd just like a good reg with flow gauge on it like the bigger tanks use.

 

[Morrey]

I actually have that. It is very odd to use. You can't attach it to the bottle unless you keep the reg on the bottle. I don't because it will probably leak. So I'd have to put the flow meter on the bottle every time I use it. Just very strange to use. And it isn't very accurate. The ball jumps around a lot. I'm not sure if that is the flow meter or the cheaper regulator. I'd just like a good reg with flow gauge on it like the bigger tanks use.

Good info. I noted the setup looked "awkward" so you more than confirmed my reaction. In fact, it sounds even worse than I imagined. Like you mentioned, I left the regulator attached to a red tank after being careful to turn off the valve fully. On my next batch I went to use the O2 and the tank was dead empty....and I had only used it once. Leaked out as you said.

The calibrated regulator on this medical tank clicks each stop/setting into place so there is no guesswork involved. My only regret is that I didn't research this sooner after spending unnecessarily on the red Bernzomatic bottles so long.

I know those inline flow regulators are readily available as I saw them in my buddies respiratory shop this morning. They are also on Amazon and Ebay...just don't know much more about them than that.

 

[mongoose33]

For those interested, you can get a flow controller at Amazon for cheap. The one I have is calibrated at too high a level to get down to a reliable 1/2 liter per minute, but I use it to control the bubbling as it's easier than using the knob on the regulator.

And FWIW, I bought the wrong flow controller. There are several with more accuracy at the low levels than the one I bought. Someday when I have more money for which I have nothing in mind, I'll buy one of those smaller-volume flow controllers.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=tools&field-keywords=flowmeter+oxygen

 

[h22lude]

Good info. I noted the setup looked "awkward" so you more than confirmed my reaction. In fact, it sounds even worse than I imagined. Like you mentioned, I left the regulator attached to a red tank after being careful to turn off the valve fully. On my next batch I went to use the O2 and the tank was dead empty....and I had only used it once. Leaked out as you said.

The calibrated regulator on this medical tank clicks each stop/setting into place so there is no guesswork involved. My only regret is that I didn't research this sooner after spending unnecessarily on the red Bernzomatic bottles so long.

I know those inline flow regulators are readily available as I saw them in my buddies respiratory shop this morning. They are also on Amazon and Ebay...just don't know much more about them than that.

I go back and forth with the big tank and reg set up. I may try to figure out how to make this cheap set up with. If I set the flow meter on the leg of my table, I should be able to easily remove the bottle but keep the flow meter straight up and down. The cheap reg still sucks but it may be ok. It is tough dialing in on a low flow. Even a very slight turn will go from under .5 lpm to 4 lpm.

 

[IslandLizard]

I put my wand/stone on my new O2 tank (pictured above post #9) while at home for lunch. I did a sort of test to see the delivery rate by submerging the stone into a glass of water and set the flow rate to .25L/m. It looked like an alka seltzer in the water. Bumping to .5L/m obviously doubled the flow and going to 1L/m caused quite a bit of bubbles/activity. The flow rate of .5L/m diffused the O2 gently enough that lots of bubbles clung to the side of the glass, while the turbulence of 1L/m seemed to dislodge the bubbles and fewer of them clung to the sides. I know this is not a great way to determine diffusion ppm, but it was the best I could do with no way to monitor otherwise.

Of course when this stone is oxygenating real wort lots of foam is created making it hard to fully evaluate like I just did with the water. I feel that .5L/m is a pretty solid flow, so I guess this will be my beta test batch setting. 2 minutes should get the job done for 5.5G, so I'll probably stick with .5L/m and bump to 4 minutes for 11G batches.

My friend wouldn't let me pay him so this is a windfall for me with refills costing only $6. I have seen tanks on rolling carts like this for $30 on Craigslist, so I wonder why most folks don't try to get a setup like this to start.

Having fun with your new toy, heh? Like a kid after Christmas Day.

If you feel you're wasting O2, you can always put a clamp on the supply hose and throttle it down that way anywhere between 1/4 to 1/128 l/min, or something like that. You can capture the volume of gas that makes it to the top, and calculate your actual DO. A carboy would be a great scientific vessel for that. A bucket is a little more difficult to gauge, but not impossible. This reminds me of a prep school experiment I wrote a paper on how to measure reaction rates. I must have really disappointed my teacher as I had no clue how to translate measurements into scientific formulas... at that time.

Some guy here sent me a spreadsheet to estimate the DO level as a function of O2 applied. He provided no real backup of the calculations he used. Still fun though.

My regulator/flow meter goes down to 1/32 l/min, so I have a wide choice of pre-selections to experiment with...

I guess the foam that forms is like a cap, I get that too, but not a crazy amount of it at the lower rates.

How about putting 2 or 4 O2 stones on the bottom, like a (small) manifold? Twice (or four times) the DO during the same time?

Anything else we can oxygenate while we have the equipment?

 

[ba-brewer]

How are you folks with medical tanks getting them refilled? I thought I read that you need a prescription to get them refilled.

Anyone know the correct type of non-medical O2 that is needed for oxygenating wort/beer?

I was only getting 7 or 8 5gal batches so I got a flowrate regulator. So far I am up to 10 batched with the flowrate regulator.

I have one similar to this one, I replaced the CGA540 nipple with a barbed nipple to connect to the basic red tank regulator.
https://www.amazon.com/Cramer-Decker-CGA540-PEDIATRIC-REGULATOR/dp/B00ZVO26C0/ref=pd_sim_328_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0T20WB0WX8T6DB7D73GP

 

[IslandLizard]

Those "regulators" that screw onto the red disposable tanks tend to leak a little, draining your tank slowly over time. Best to remove them while not in use. Someone claimed getting 20+ batches out of a disposable red tank that way, and it wasn't empty yet.

 

[augiedoggy]

Those "regulators" that screw onto the red disposable tanks tend to leak a little, draining your tank slowly over time. Best to remove them while not in use. Someone claimed getting 20+ batches out of a disposable red tank that way, and it wasn't empty yet.

Ive gotten quite a few batches out of mine so far. I bought my regulator at the home depot... comes with the $40 torch kit that includes a tank of oxygen.. I dont believe mines leaking since its been at least 8 months since I last changed it.

 

[Morrey]

Having fun with your new toy, heh? Like a kid after Christmas Day.

Lordy, you know me too well! Just think in a few days my new 14G Uni Tank from Ss Brewech is scheduled to arrive. It REALLY will be Christmas then, so you may have to remind me to put a lid on the excitement...LOL.

How are you folks with medical tanks getting them refilled? I thought I read that you need a prescription to get them refilled.

I asked my buddy who owns the respiratory supply business if getting it refilled would be of concern since I had heard the same prescription necessary talk. He told me that's not a big deal, but I'm not sure if its because I know him...or if its not a big deal for anyone. I know that AirGas fills O2 tanks and my wife uses them for torches in her jewelry supply business.

Question is....Is all O2 the same or is there actually a difference in O2 to solder with or O2 to breathe as in medical O2? Not sure.

 

[h22lude]

Question is....Is all O2 the same or is there actually a difference in O2 to solder with or O2 to breathe as in medical O2? Not sure.

I read on here that there are different grades of O2 but that is wrong. All O2 is the same. The tank is what makes the difference. Here is a good article on it. Basically, if the tank is new it is medical grade. If that tank is left unfilled, it can no longer be medical grade because it could have impurities.

https://www.ozonesolutions.com/info/is-medical-oxygen-different

 

[LarMoeCur]

I'm averaging about 12 10 gallon batches from 1 O2 bottle. I bought a cheap ebay control valve and run .5 lpm for 30-45 seconds through a .5 micron stone. No bubbles break the surface. Temperature has a big part of O2 absorption just like CO2 for serving the colder the fluid the more absorption. I get my wort down to 66F before aerating. If your aerating at higher temps you will use more O2.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LZQ-0-1-5LP...-Oxygen-Air-/142041811561?hash=item21125a0a69

There is practically no difference between industrial and medical oxygen,” said Ravi K. Bansal, chief executive of the Airsep Corporation of Buffalo, which produces both kinds. The two come from the same source and are produced the same way, he said, but to sell oxygen as medical gas, as with any prescription drug, regulations must be complied with to ensure that it is being properly dispensed and that it is traceable, with a lot number in the event of a recall.

 

[MaxStout]

How are you folks with medical tanks getting them refilled? I thought I read that you need a prescription to get them refilled.

Anyone know the correct type of non-medical O2 that is needed for oxygenating wort/beer?

I was only getting 7 or 8 5gal batches so I got a flowrate regulator. So far I am up to 10 batched with the flowrate regulator.

I have one similar to this one, I replaced the CGA540 nipple with a barbed nipple to connect to the basic red tank regulator.
https://www.amazon.com/Cramer-Decker-CGA540-PEDIATRIC-REGULATOR/dp/B00ZVO26C0/ref=pd_sim_328_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=0T20WB0WX8T6DB7D73GP

I've heard that prescription thing, too. If you want an industrial cylinder, you can get the small "R" size 20 cu. ft. tanks at any welding supply. I paid around $70 new for mine a few years ago and haven't had to refill it yet. You will need a regulator, too. I bought mine on Amazon. A bit of an investment upfront, but you never have to worry if your 1 cu ft disposable will run out in the middle of the oxygenation process.

As h22lude noted, it's the same gas, just different cylinders.

 

[Sbe2]

I've heard that prescription thing, too. If you want an industrial cylinder, you can get the small "R" size 20 cu. ft. tanks at any welding supply. I paid around $70 new for mine a few years ago and haven't had to refill it yet. You will need a regulator, too. I bought mine on Amazon. A bit of an investment upfront, but you never have to worry if your 1 cu ft disposable will run out in the middle of the oxygenation process.

As h22lude noted, it's the same gas, just different cylinders.

I have a welding O2 cylinder and regulator on hand and I am curious how you neck down to an oxygenation stone?

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks @MaxStout , @Morrey and @h22lude for your comments.

I've heard that prescription thing, too. If you want an industrial cylinder, you can get the small "R" size 20 cu. ft. tanks at any welding supply. I paid around $70 new for mine a few years ago and haven't had to refill it yet. You will need a regulator, too. I bought mine on Amazon. A bit of an investment upfront, but you never have to worry if your 1 cu ft disposable will run out in the middle of the oxygenation process.

As h22lude noted, it's the same gas, just different cylinders.

As I already have a flow rate regulator I would think I don't need a second one is that correct?

Also did you get your tank filled at a welding place or somewhere else?

 

[MaxStout]

I have a welding O2 cylinder and regulator on hand and I am curious how you neck down to an oxygenation stone?

My regulator came with a 1/4" barb fitting. I just attached a length of plastic tubing. If your reg doesn't have a barbed fitting, you might have to look for an adapter.

Thanks @MaxStout , @Morrey and @h22lude for your comments.



As I already have a flow rate regulator I would think I don't need a second one is that correct?

Also did you get your tank filled at a welding place or somewhere else?

If you have a flow rate reg, and it's threaded to attach to the O2 cylinder, you should be good to go.

My tank was filled when I bought it new at the welding supply. The place I bought it from does exchange, not refill.

 

[Sbe2]

Is it hearsay to oxygenate the wort in the BK before transferring to the fermenter? For me it might be easier to do with a larger O2 cylinder.

 

[MaxStout]

Is it hearsay to oxygenate the wort in the BK before transferring to the fermenter? For me it might be easier to do with a larger O2 cylinder.

I don't see why not, once the wort is cooled.