Not sure if it's WLP566 or Chlorine but slight plastic taste/smell in ferm

[Colbizle]

First time I brewed a Belgian IPA the other day with WLP566. I checked the gravity yesterday and still has some work to do, it is sitting at a temp of 66F. I tasted the sample and its good but the after taste has a slight plastic flavor/aroma to it. First time I've experienced that in my two years of brewing all-grain. I immediately did some research found out chlorine and/or chloramines could potentially be the culprit but this has never been an issue before in any of my other brews and I've never seen this flaw mentioned on any of my scoresheets in competitions either.

I checked my water report again since I do adjust my water additions and mash PH and I saw this:

Chlorine Residual Combined NH2Cl MAX: 4.3 MIN: 2.4 AVG: 3.8

So there is def chlorine and/or chloramines in my water of some type. I just have never bothered to filter my water or use cambden tabs since I haven't came across this issue before, so I find it weird it's coming up now with this yeast.

I'm wondering.. could this just be the yeast and maybe it will dissipate at the end of fermentation? Or maybe because it's spring the chlorine concentration is higher.

Help?

 

[shanecb]

I've never had this sort of issue with 566, and I've used it a fair number of times. I wouldn't worry about it for another couple of weeks to see if the smell dissipates, since it sounds like it's still pretty early in fermentation. Could just be an odd fermentation smell that'll go away.

 

[TopherM]

I had a slight plastic taste in about 5 straight batches, and couldn't figure it out. Finally, someone suggested I take apart my ball valve and check the plastic "ball" part, and sure enough, it was melted and must have been leaching a bit, as once I replaced it, my issue disappeared.

Really, that goes for any fittings or anything else in your system. Check them all to make sure they are clean and in good shape!

Good luck!

 

[Colbizle]

I've never had this sort of issue with 566, and I've used it a fair number of times. I wouldn't worry about it for another couple of weeks to see if the smell dissipates, since it sounds like it's still pretty early in fermentation. Could just be an odd fermentation smell that'll go away.

Good to know your experience with it. I'm hoping its just fermentation but if the smell/taste is there post ferm then it's definitely chloramines and I'll have to dumb it since those don't age out.

 

[shanecb]

Well if you think that's the culprit, instead of dumping it you could try adding campden tablets to it post-fermentation. Campden tablets are pretty forgiving to wine and beer yeast (they're mostly used to inhibit the growth of wild yeast) so that could help take care of a chloramine problem if there is one, and you'd still possibly carbonate just fine. Might be worth giving a try at least instead of dumping it.

 

[Colbizle]

Well if you think that's the culprit, instead of dumping it you could try adding campden tablets to it post-fermentation. Campden tablets are pretty forgiving to wine and beer yeast (they're mostly used to inhibit the growth of wild yeast) so that could help take care of a chloramine problem if there is one, and you'd still possibly carbonate just fine. Might be worth giving a try at least instead of dumping it.

This is true, however, since this a Belgian style beer which are often bottle conditioned the campden tab would defeat the purpose of using the Belgian yeast since I'd like those yeast to continue to bottle/condition age somewhat and campden would completely inhibit that.

 

[shanecb]

This is true, however, since this a Belgian style beer which are often bottle conditioned the campden tab would defeat the purpose of using the Belgian yeast since I'd like those yeast to continue to bottle/condition age somewhat and campden would completely inhibit that.

That's a good point. I wasn't really thinking of that when I posted. It still might work out though, since campden doesn't kill yeast per se, and I THINK it's mostly harmful to wild yeast and not brewing yeast as much. But I guess yeast is yeast, in the end, so it probably would inhibit bottle conditioning some if not totally.

 

[Colbizle]

That's a good point. I wasn't really thinking of that when I posted. It still might work out though, since campden doesn't kill yeast per se, and I THINK it's mostly harmful to wild yeast and not brewing yeast as much. But I guess yeast is yeast, in the end, so it probably would inhibit bottle conditioning some if not totally.

No worries, I appreciate the help. Although it sucks to dump a batch, I'd rather serve people good beer then flawed beer. So I'll just have to remake it and fix my water issue. You live and learn.

 

[shanecb]

Hopefully in a couple weeks the smell is gone and everything is good!

 

[peterj]

Chlorine Residual Combined NH2Cl MAX: 4.3 MIN: 2.4 AVG: 3.8

NH2Cl is chloramine. It is more long lasting and doesn't off gas as easily as chlorine. I would start using campden tablets if I were you. Maybe your city just started using chloramine instead of chlorine? Or maybe like you said they just added more because of the time of the year or something. It could be any number of factors. But since you have chloramine in your water, I think that is probably where the off flavor is coming from.

I just used this yeast for the first time in a hoppy saison, and I didn't pick up any of these flavors.

Chloramine reacts with phenols in the malt to produce chlorophenols. Saison yeasts are known to produce higher levels of phenols, so maybe the phenols from the yeast combined with the chlorophenols from the chloramine bumped it up over your taste threshold. Just hypothesizing here.

Here's some more info: http://www.morebeer.com/articles/removing_chloramines_from_water

Well if you think that's the culprit, instead of dumping it you could try adding campden tablets to it post-fermentation. Campden tablets are pretty forgiving to wine and beer yeast (they're mostly used to inhibit the growth of wild yeast) so that could help take care of a chloramine problem if there is one, and you'd still possibly carbonate just fine. Might be worth giving a try at least instead of dumping it.

I don't think adding campden after fermentation would help. Campden tablets work by breaking down the chloramine into ammonia and chloride. Once the mash is complete the chlorophenols which cause the off flavor have already been produced, and I'm not sure the campden will work the same way on these.

 

[Colbizle]

NH2Cl is chloramine. It is more long lasting and doesn't off gas as easily as chlorine. I would start using campden tablets if I were you. Maybe your city just started using chloramine instead of chlorine? Or maybe like you said they just added more because of the time of the year or something. It could be any number of factors. But since you have chloramine in your water, I think that is probably where the off flavor is coming from.

I just used this yeast for the first time in a hoppy saison, and I didn't pick up any of these flavors.

Chloramine reacts with phenols in the malt to produce chlorophenols. Saison yeasts are known to produce higher levels of phenols, so maybe the phenols from the yeast combined with the chlorophenols from the chloramine bumped it up over your taste threshold. Just hypothesizing here.

Here's some more info: http://www.morebeer.com/articles/removing_chloramines_from_water



I don't think adding campden after fermentation would help. Campden tablets work by breaking down the chloramine into ammonia and chloride. Once the mash is complete the chlorophenols which cause the off flavor have already been produced, and I'm not sure the campden will work the same way on these.

Spot on Peter, you summed up my speculations exactly.

One more thing:
Can Chlorine and/or Chloramines contribute to harshness or astringency in the final beer product. I've noticed in all of my score-sheets the judges always say "slight astringency" and I'm not sure where this is coming from since I take care in acidify my sparge water to 5.6, batch sparge under 170F and always vorlauf about a couple gallons. So I'm thinking maybe its the chlorine/Chloramines since I've never bothered to remove it.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

This might be completely irrelevant, but I had this issue with an Oatmeal Cookie Stout that I made. None of my other brews had this problem, and the water I used has no chlorine, so I was (and still am) stumped as to the actual cause. There's nowhere in my brew routine where plastic is really invovled....

The good news is that in two weeks it had diminished quite a bit, and a month later it is nearly gone. I am guessing that in another month it won't be there any more at all.

 

[Colbizle]

This might be completely irrelevant, but I had this issue with an Oatmeal Cookie Stout that I made. None of my other brews had this problem, and the water I used has no chlorine, so I was (and still am) stumped as to the actual cause. There's nowhere in my brew routine where plastic is really invovled....

The good news is that in two weeks it had diminished quite a bit, and a month later it is nearly gone. I am guessing that in another month it won't be there any more at all.

Interesting, from what I read however, Chloramines don't diminish.

On a side note, how did that oatmeal cookie stout turn out? I'm going to brew one soon but shooting more with a raisin touch so I'm planning on using a bunch of special b and adding a couple cinnamon sticks at flameout.

 

[peterj]

Spot on Peter, you summed up my speculations exactly.

One more thing:
Can Chlorine and/or Chloramines contribute to harshness or astringency in the final beer product. I've noticed in all of my score-sheets the judges always say "slight astringency" and I'm not sure where this is coming from since I take care in acidify my sparge water to 5.6, batch sparge under 170F and always vorlauf about a couple gallons. So I'm thinking maybe its the chlorine/Chloramines since I've never bothered to remove it.

Yeah that could be the case. I don't have much experience with the taste of chlorophenols, but maybe at low levels they could come across as astringent. Tannins are polyphenols, and other astringent tastes can be caused by different phenols. So chlorophenols could very well be where that "slight astringency" is coming from.

 

[Colbizle]

Yeah that could be the case. I don't have much experience with the taste of chlorophenols, but maybe at low levels they could come across as astringent. Tannins are polyphenols, and other astringent tastes can be caused by different phenols. So chlorophenols could very well be where that "slight astringency" is coming from.

I hope so, I sick of getting docked for slight astringency on my scoresheets even medaling winning ones too.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Interesting, from what I read however, Chloramines don't diminish.

On a side note, how did that oatmeal cookie stout turn out? I'm going to brew one soon but shooting more with a raisin touch so I'm planning on using a bunch of special b and adding a couple cinnamon sticks at flameout

It might not be from chloramines; I just assumed that it is from the discussion. It's a slight "plasticky" flavour that shows up in the finish. Definitely diminished, hopefully gone (I might find out tonight!).

Aside from that slight issue, the Oatmeal Cookie Stout was simply outstanding. Mine did add raisins, cinnamon stick and brown sugar; and was bottled using pure maple syrup as a priming sugar. I was quite impressed, and definitely intend to get some going again in time for winter. The one that I made was from Brooklyn Brew Shop's mix (Check out this 30-second video - it REALLY sells the recipe!):

http://brooklynbrewshop.com/beer-making-mixes/oatmeal-stout-mix

[ame]https://vimeo.com/80167768[/ame]

Anyway, instead of buying the mix again, I have their recipe for this, from their book. If you're interested in comparing notes, let me know.

Sorry to hijack the thread - carry on, gents!

 

[Colbizle]

It might not be from chloramines; I just assumed that it is from the discussion. It's a slight "plasticky" flavour that shows up in the finish. Definitely diminished, hopefully gone (I might find out tonight!).

Aside from that slight issue, the Oatmeal Cookie Stout was simply outstanding. Mine did add raisins, cinnamon stick and brown sugar; and was bottled using pure maple syrup as a priming sugar. I was quite impressed, and definitely intend to get some going again in time for winter. The one that I made was from Brooklyn Brew Shop's mix (Check out this 30-second video - it REALLY sells the recipe!):

http://brooklynbrewshop.com/beer-making-mixes/oatmeal-stout-mix

https://vimeo.com/80167768

Anyway, instead of buying the mix again, I have their recipe for this, from their book. If you're interested in comparing notes, let me know.

Sorry to hijack the thread - carry on, gents!

'

Sweet thanks for the info. I might take some ideas from that. Cheers.

 

[TopherM]

If it's chloramines, you can filter that using a simple charcoal filter. The cartridge filters sold as RV filters would do the job. You should be at least filtering your water through a basic charcoal/carbon filter anyway when you brew beer, not just using tap water.

Most counties have about a week a year when they run a higher concentration of chloramines and chlorides through the pipes to clean them. My county is conducting that exercise this week, and you definitely don't want to brew with that water. Maybe you just used tap water the wrong week!

 

[peterj]

If it's chloramines, you can filter that using a simple charcoal filter. The cartridge filters sold as RV filters would do the job. You should be at least filtering your water through a basic charcoal/carbon filter anyway when you brew beer, not just using tap water.

Most counties have about a week a year when they run a higher concentration of chloramines and chlorides through the pipes to clean them. My county is conducting that exercise this week, and you definitely don't want to brew with that water. Maybe you just used tap water the wrong week!

Yeah that's true, you can remove them with a carbon filter as well.

I think it's kind of a blanket statement to say that you should filter all tap water before brewing though. I don't think that's necessarily true. My tap water tastes great and it only contains chlorine, so I just measure out the volume I'll need the night before, add my salts, and let it off gas the chlorine over night.