Noob recipe

[Dsavant]

Hello there, I'm fairly new to brewing (only have 1 batch of beer, and 2 of cider under my belt) and have been looking around for some decent hard cider recipes that seemed pretty easy to throw together, and after comparing a few, I've come up with the below:

5 gallons of AJ
Nottingham yeast
1 pound(?) of dextrose

I was going to combine them in my 5 gallon primary, keep it there for about a month, then transfer to a bottling bucket, add a can (or two if it's not a bad idea) of FAJC, and some apple flavoring in case it's lost its taste, then bottle.

I just have a few questions about this...

1. Does this seem like it'd be pretty decent? The only "cider" I've made in the past was essentially just apfelwein, and I wanted to try to come up with something more bubbly, crisp, and lightly sweetened (and drinkable, as the "apfelwein" was essentially just apple-ish hooch... Didn't taste too great, but after some Splenda, and some courage it knocked you on your butt)

2. Should one lb of dextrose be enough? I don't want it to be too high, maybe like, 8% tops

3. Would only one can of concentrate be enough to carb it at all without worrying about bottle bombs?

4. Doing all this, and adding the concentrate, in order to keep it semi sweet should I add an artificial sweetener? I know I could suspend the yeast, but I'd like at least SOME carbonation, and I don't fully grasp bottle pasteurizing

5. Should I add any enzymes/pectin in this? I wasn't sure if they're nice for a way to assist with taking a cider from "eh" to better, or if they're more of a "I've already got this cider pretty decent, and they help to make it better" thing

Sorry for the long post! I just thought I'd try to get everything listed at once

 

[AidanSavage]

Make sure you have a hydrometer before you go about adding any sugars to your starting juice. Measure your juice for it's SG before any additions. If the SG is 1.065, if the nottingham ferments it to 1.000, that means you get an 8.5% or so ABV. If you want your cider to be sweeter, yet still have the same ABV, that's when you add sugar bit by bit. An OG/SG of 1.75 fermented to 1.010 will have roughly the same ABV as the previous measurements. Without a hydro, like I did for my first batch (bottling it tonight), you'd need to do some hardcore mathing to have even an estimated OG which might not even be right. So to keep this part from being too long, figure out what you want your FG (final gravity) to be (1.008-1.012 people like with notty), then use http://www.brewersfriend.com/abv-calculator/ to figure out what OG you'd need to get your desired ABV at that FG. Then add sugar bit by bit until you reach that OG.


As for leaving in primary for a month, it's a better idea to use a hydro and measure until you reach your FG goal. THAT is when you cold crash to help clear the cider before you get ready to bottle. Since it can still ferment until sufficiently chilled, it might help to be a few points above your FG. With adding FAJC, taste what you draw off for the hydro measuring first. If that tastes fine, then bottle as-is. If it's not, thaw out a can of FAJC (inside a large enough cup mind you), then take a tablespoon, or less, of it in a cup, then draw off exactly 1 cup of the cider (if you dont have enough from measuring with the hydro), mix the two and taste. Keep at it until the taste is what you want, then extrapolate amounts based on what you tested.

If it took 1/2 tbsp to sweeten 1 cup to your liking, then since 80 cups equals 5 gallons, you'd need 80*0.5 tbsp of FAJC, or 40 tbsp, or 20 ounces of FAJC, which is 2 cans worth, plus a bit extra.



As far as carbing it, it might be easier to bottle a still cider if you arent entirely comfortable with pasteurizing carbed bottles. Without neutralizing the yeast, either by heat or chemical, bottle bombs will always be a concern unless you can house 5 gallons worth of bottles in your fridge. However, with 5 gallons, what you could do is sweeten to taste, bottle, and then leave at room temp to carb. Open/drink one every 12/24 hours until they have the fizz you want. If they have the "i just shook a can of soda" kind of fizz, they've gone waaaaaaaay too far. Alternatively, you could open a bottle 24 hours later, see if it's got any fizz at all, then immediately pasteurize all the other bottles. This would let you get some carbing, and minimize risk of bombs.

Cold crashing should remove the majority of the yeast, which helps clear it, but enough should remain in suspension to carb the bottles. Whether enough would remain to have any noticeable carbing in 24 hours is kinda iffy. Just a matter of the risk you're willing to take.

Pectins I'd hold off on unless their intended effects are something you actually need.

 

[Dsavant]

Thanks a ton! That was a lot of extremely useful information. I was wondering how long I was gonna be able to skate by without a Hydro and I guess nows that time. I'll give it a go, and after looking at pappers guide for pasteurizing, I think that's actually the route I'm going to go. Thanks again!

 

[bds3]

Full disclosure: although I've done a lot of beer I only just finished my first cider. Hopefully I can still answer a few of these though.


1&2. Yes it seems like it'll be decent. I did one similar with light brown sugar, and s-04 yeast. You need to take an OG but yes, 1lb of sugar will put you in the 8ish% ABV (assuming normal apple juice). Mine fermented from 1.065 to just below 1.000 but with the s-04 it wasn't too overly harsh despite being pretty dry. Hopefully Notty will give you the same effect, and I've read it will.

3&4. You can figure out how much sugar you need to bottle-condition to your desired carbonation with a calculator online (for example http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/), but typically 20-28 grams of sugar per gallon. So one ounce of sugar per gallon or you risk overcarbing and/or bottle bombs. Juice concentrate has 20+ grams sugar per ounce of concentrate depending on brand, so a 12-ounce can would be too much sugar to use solely as a priming sugar. In short, you would have to pasteurize if you use one whole can, or else stabilze and go with a still cider.

I made 5 gallons fermented to completion. It was drinkable at bottling but lacking a little apple flavor, so I decided to go two different routes. I put 5 ounces of concentrate in as my priming sugar for 5 gallons and bottled half of the batch, with the intention of leaving it to carb up for a few weeks and not worry about bottle bombs. I do not know if this will help impart a little extra apple flavor or if the tiny amount of concentrate in each bottle is indeed insignificant as I've not tried these ones yet

I paused there and for the second half of the batch, in addition to the ounce per gallon I'd already added, I put in the rest of the can and mixed well, so another 7 ounces (effectively 9.5 ounces in this 2.5 gallons - so ~4 times as much as necessary to carb it up). I then did the pop-bottle trick and pasteurized this half a few days later. It was certainly sweeter (I'd call it semi-sweet but I don't really like sweet drinks) than it was at bottling and had more apple flavor. I did not take a gravity reading after adding the additional concentrate.
I don't know which version I will prefer more but I'm excited to find out.

5. Personal preference. I say don't mess with it until you've got your recipe down and want to refine your process.

 

[bds3]

You can figure out how much sugar you need to bottle-condition to your desired carbonation with a calculator online (for example http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/), but typically 20-28 grams of sugar per gallon. So one ounce of sugar per gallon or you risk overcarbing and/or bottle bombs. Juice concentrate has 20+ grams sugar per ounce of concentrate depending on brand, so a 12-ounce can would be too much sugar to use solely as a priming sugar. In short, you would have to pasteurize if you use one whole can, or else stabilze and go with a still cider.

I made 5 gallons fermented to completion. It was drinkable at bottling but lacking a little apple flavor, so I decided to go two different routes. I put 5 ounces of concentrate in as my priming sugar for 5 gallons and bottled half of the batch, with the intention of leaving it to carb up for a few weeks and not worry about bottle bombs. I do not know if this will help impart a little extra apple flavor or if the tiny amount of concentrate in each bottle is indeed insignificant

FYI I used Old Orchard concentrate with 27g sugar per ounce.

 

[bds3]

I paused there and for the second half of the batch, in addition to the ounce per gallon I'd added, I put in the rest of the can and mixed well, so another 7 ounces (effectively 9.5 ounces in this 2.5 gallons - so ~4 times necessary to carb it up). I then did the pop-bottle trick and pasteurized this half only a few days later. It was certainly sweeter (I'd call it semi-sweet but I don't really like sweet drinks) than at bottling and had more apple flavor. I did not take a gravity reading after adding the additional concentrate.

Now that my own post got me curious, it looks like this should've taken this half of my batch up to around 1.010 (based on a simple calculator, and in an ideal world), minus the small amount that continues to ferment for carbonation pruposes. This could be in the ballpark of sweetness you're after.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread with 3 consecutive posts. At least I didn't edit this one (yet).

 

[Dsavant]

Didn't mean to hijack the thread with 3 consecutive posts. At least I didn't edit this one (yet).

That's completely fine, I appreciate all the information from the two of you. I need as much as possible before I give it a go tomorrow

 

[Dsavant]

Short update on this, as I really haven't done anything with this until my hydrometer came. OG was 1.050 so I did not add any additional sugar, as I intend to ferment it to 1.008, which puts me at 5.5% which sounds perfect for who I'm brewing this for. I plan on cold crashing it once it reaches 1.01 or so just to be safe, and I may or may not add more juice prior to bottling depending on how it tastes. I am however going to be adding some ginger flavoring that I had picked up from my local brewshop.

I'm still trying to plan out how I'm going to pasteurize it once the carbonation is to where I want it, but as of today I kind-of plan on doing this, as I've got a couple fairly large coolers that should not only keep the temperature pretty well, but contain any accidental breaking

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/easy-bottle-pasteurization-cooler-442291/

 

[AidanSavage]

Actually, if you have one of the beverage type coolers (the ones with the spout/spigot), those might work pretty well since you can use the drain to empty the water.

FYI, if that picture is your end result before bottling, i'd top that up and kill that headspace ASAP. Dont want anything growing before bottled.

 

[Dsavant]

Yup! The ones I have do indeed have the spout to empty them.

As for the headspace, good looking out! I had actually filled it, but had taken a picture for a friend of mine prior to filling all the way.

 

[bernardsmith]

I realize that brewers approach wine making differently from wine makers (I include cider as class of wine) so feel free to ignore my suggestion. But when I make cider I allow the yeast full rein (perhaps I should spell that word "reign"). and that means I want the yeast to gobble up every last grain of fermentable sugar. When they are done I stabilize the cider and then add back whatever sugar I think the cider calls for. Trying to hit a target (1.008) may mean that you are up at 2.30 in the morning or you need to run home at 11 AM. Nuts! I say. You want a cider with a final gravity of 1.008. Fine. Ferment dry stabilize and add exactly enough sugar to hit 1.008. You prefer it to be 1.007 or 1.0085. You have the sugar in your hands and you can add it grain by grain by grain.. (approximately 10 gms of sugar added to 1 gallon of wine (or cider) will increase the gravity by .001 - so you have a great deal of control). We call this "back sweetening" .

 

[AidanSavage]

I realize that brewers approach wine making differently from wine makers (I include cider as class of wine) so feel free to ignore my suggestion. But when I make cider I allow the yeast full rein (perhaps I should spell that word "reign"). and that means I want the yeast to gobble up every last grain of fermentable sugar. When they are done I stabilize the cider and then add back whatever sugar I think the cider calls for. Trying to hit a target (1.008) may mean that you are up at 2.30 in the morning or you need to run home at 11 AM. Nuts! I say. You want a cider with a final gravity of 1.008. Fine. Ferment dry stabilize and add exactly enough sugar to hit 1.008. You prefer it to be 1.007 or 1.0085. You have the sugar in your hands and you can add it grain by grain by grain.. (approximately 10 gms of sugar added to 1 gallon of wine (or cider) will increase the gravity by .001 - so you have a great deal of control). We call this "back sweetening" .

Technically hard cider is a wine, as it's a fermented fruit product (it's even taxed/regulated as a wine in the US). As far as hitting FG marks, it can take practice, but the way to go about it seems easy enough. If your yeast has a tolerable range of 58-72 *F, you can do the "stage 1" fermentation at say, 65/66 *F until you're within 0.010 of your goal FG, then you can drop the temp down to 58/59 *F for "stage 2" and prolong the fermentation and slow down just how quickly the gravity drops.

 

[Dsavant]

The FG I'm aiming for is more a target number than anything, I fully expect and understand that the chances of me stopping fermentation at that exact amount are slim to none at this time. In regards to letting it ferment completely dry, I figure I could do that, but if I'm around/ready to crash it when it's somewhat around my desired FG then why not? I understand what you're saying though, and the next batch I'm going to make (I'm not sure yet, but I know it's gonna be blueberry flavored, and I'll be using champaign yeast) I will certainly follow that method

 

[AidanSavage]

The FG I'm aiming for is more a target number than anything, I fully expect and understand that the chances of me stopping fermentation at that exact amount are slim to none at this time. In regards to letting it ferment completely dry, I figure I could do that, but if I'm around/ready to crash it when it's somewhat around my desired FG then why not? I understand what you're saying though, and the next batch I'm going to make (I'm not sure yet, but I know it's gonna be blueberry flavored, and I'll be using champaign yeast) I will certainly follow that method

Depending on what you want your end result to be, it may be easier to ferment dry, get off the yeast cake, let it clear, and then add sugar/FAJC to get it back to your FG. That'd let you fine-tune what the ABV would be too.

One thing I've considered doing myself, was when bottling, instead of backsweetening entirely with FAJC, I've thought about prefilling each bottle with 4-6 ounces of apple juice and filling the rest of the way with the hard cider. I'll probably do that for one or two bottles out of my second batch, and backsweeten the rest the "normal" way.

 

[Dsavant]

When I go to cold crash, should I:

1. Just cap the primary, and put it in the fridge
2. Transfer to secondary first, then crash

I've seen people saying to do it either way

 

[AidanSavage]

When I go to cold crash, should I:

1. Just cap the primary, and put it in the fridge
2. Transfer to secondary first, then crash

I've seen people saying to do it either way

Can depend on how you'll go about bottling. If you're just making a sweet still cider, you can just put the fermentor in the fridge (leave the airlock on it as it'll continue to ferment until it reaches cold temps and you dont want to blow the lid/jar). I think secondary is usually done for aging longterm.

 

[Dsavant]

Can depend on how you'll go about bottling. If you're just making a sweet still cider, you can just put the fermentor in the fridge (leave the airlock on it as it'll continue to ferment until it reaches cold temps and you dont want to blow the lid/jar). I think secondary is usually done for aging longterm.

What I'd really want to do is cold crash, then bottle carb (I'm pretty sure I'll be able to handle bottle pasteurizing) I just didn't know if getting it off the yeast cake before cold crashing helps/was necessary. I assume it doesn't matter. Tbh I'm not even certain I need to/should cold crash because I'm going to be backsweetening and bottle carbing, but it can't hurt, right? Ultimately I wanted to end up with a semi sweet, lightly carbed cider

 

[AidanSavage]

Being on the yeast cake for a day or two longer shouldnt have much impact on taste. Cold crashing can help yeast drop out, clear the cider, etc. And I think it'll help reduce the amount of particulates that settle in the bottles after you pasteurize.

 

[Dsavant]

Being on the yeast cake for a day or two longer shouldnt have much impact on taste. Cold crashing can help yeast drop out, clear the cider, etc. And I think it'll help reduce the amount of particulates that settle in the bottles after you pasteurize.

Great, thanks! Fermentation slowed down a little, and it was sitting at 1.020 yesterday, so a little longer I'm guessing and I'll crash it, then bottle, back sweeten, carb, and pasteurize and let you know how it goes!

 

[Dsavant]

So, a small update: swmbo and I checked the hydrometer (fg was at 1.010) and bottled late last night. We ended up adding about 3.5 ounces of brewers best ginger flavoring and 3 cans of fajc. I'm going to let it carb just a little bit and then pasteurize once my test bottle is about where I want. The issue we had with the cider though is it tasted very.. Watered down? I knew not much apple flavor would carry over, but even after adding the fajc it's still not very "crisp" although it is still quite delicious. In the future how would I prevent or fix this? Is that where enzymes/pectin and stuff come in?

 

[JimRausch]

So, a small update: swmbo and I checked the hydrometer (fg was at 1.010) and bottled late last night. We ended up adding about 3.5 ounces of brewers best ginger flavoring and 3 cans of fajc. I'm going to let it carb just a little bit and then pasteurize once my test bottle is about where I want. The issue we had with the cider though is it tasted very.. Watered down? I knew not much apple flavor would carry over, but even after adding the fajc it's still not very "crisp" although it is still quite delicious. In the future how would I prevent or fix this? Is that where enzymes/pectin and stuff come in?

Time will be your best friend. On a straight cider I did 2 years ago, it took 18 months or so before I could drink it without adding 1/2 tsp. of sugar per glass. The apple flavor came back at the same time. Last year and this year, I did a Graf which helped retain the apple flavor and a little sweetness.
By the way, I did the cooler pasteurization method with the Grafs, and it worked perfectly- lightly carbonated, a little sweetness, no bottle bombs.
Pectic enzyme is added before fermentation to fresh cider to break down the pectin which tends to give a cloudy end product. It won't affect flavor. There are posts where people talk about adding acid blends and tannins to affect the end flavor. No personal experience with those. The FAJC will also help. I bottle with 1 can, then pasteurize when it's ready.

 

[AidanSavage]

The ending taste can also be impacted by your starting liquid as well. Making cider from FAJC might be the cheap method for starting out, but making it from raw cider, whether from the grocers or orchard, can make a large difference as well. Sometimes it can be as simple as what you put in is what you get out.

In your next batch, you could consider using FAJC to add sugar instead of "pure" sugar. That might help hold the flavor in the end.

 

[Dsavant]

So, my test bottle was pretty solid today, and swmbo and I cracked open a smaller 12oz bottle today and.... It is just fantastic! We had a couple of friends try it and they were in love! I opened up a swing top bottle and let the carbonation die out a bit then ran it alongside the rest of the harvest through the dishwasher twice and will check it again to determine if my method of pasteurizing worked. I figure if it doesn't, I should still have time to try the cooler method. How long should I let it sit re-sealed to test it again? I assumed that if I opened it up again tomorrow and there's little to no carbonation then it went according to plan?

 

[Dsavant]

Just to share. I opened a swing top bottle lastnight shortly after posting then re-capped it. I opened it again just a few minutes ago and it was completely flat. Unless I'm mistaken this method worked, correct?