Noob Questions on Bottling

[Showdown]

Things seemed to be going well, and now I'm struggling. I hate not being awesome at what I do and am getting frustrated.

1) Just bottled an IPA. Put in 4.5oz of Corn Sugar as I've done in other batches. But with this batch, I cold-crashed prior to bottling. So I'm on the carbonation calculator (after the fact, of course. MUST I ALWAYS LEARN THE HARD WAY???) and see that if I'm bottling cold, the amount of priming sugar needed drops significantly. Am I going to have bottle rockets? Should I do something proactive here?

2) Same scenario as above. After I bottled, my count is 40 beers, or roughly 480oz or roughly 3.75 gallons. How much volume of beer is lost in the trub? How do you calculate priming sugar without knowing the real beer yield?

 

[MaxStout]

1. The temp you use in the calculation is the highest temp attained by the beer in fermentation, not the final temp at bottling. That's to take into account residual CO2 in solution. The warmer the beer, the less residual CO2, and the more additional carbonation needed.

2. You just have to take a good guess as to amount of trub that will be left behind. Assuming you had 5 gallons to start with, losing 1.25 gallons seems like a lot.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

I use a bottling bucket that I have marked with gallon marks to get an accurate volume.

 

[Showdown]

1. The temp you use in the calculation is the highest temp attained by the beer in fermentation, not the final temp at bottling. That's to take into account residual CO2 in solution. The warmer the beer, the less residual CO2, and the more additional carbonation needed.

2. You just have to take a good guess as to amount of trub that will be left behind. Assuming you had 5 gallons to start with, losing 1.25 gallons seems like a lot.

The calculator I used is below. It asks temperature of beer at bottling. I understand what you are saying, which is why I'm freaking out. I bottled immediately after cold crashing, so beer was probably 40-45 degrees.

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html

Item #2, I completely agree. I'm struggling to get beer off the trub - it always seems like I leave so much behind, but I'm sucking a lot of solids through the siphon and the siphon struggles and I end up getting air bubbles as I try to keep the siphon/air lock going.

 

[Showdown]

I use a bottling bucket that I have marked with gallon marks to get an accurate volume.

But how does that help when you need to add priming sugar prior to filling the bottling bucket? Unless you are dropping the priming sugar in afterwards and stirring (which could lead to oxidation)?

 

[MaxStout]

Thanks for the help. The calculator I used is below. It asks temperature of beer at bottling. I understand what you are saying, which is why I'm freaking out. I bottled immediately after cold crashing, so beer was probably 40-45 degrees.

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html

Item #2, I completely agree. I'm struggling to get beer off the trub - it always seems like I leave so much behind, but I'm sucking a lot of solids through the siphon and the siphon struggles and I end up getting air bubbles as I try to keep the siphon/air lock going.

That calculator is incorrect, as your beer will end up a little undercarbed.

For example: If you ferment at 62, bump to 68, then cold-crash to 40, you use the 68 temp. Because when your beer was 68, it had its lowest concentration of CO2. Some of that CO2 was driven off. Cold-crashing afterwards did not put any CO2 back (even though the beer had the capacity to hold more of it). At that point your yeast is dormant, you're close to final gravity and there won't be any appreciable CO2 production.

Better than being overcarbed and getting bottle bombs!

 

[loeks]

better than being overcarbed and getting bottle bombs! :d

yesssss!!!!

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

But how does that help when you need to add priming sugar prior to filling the bottling bucket? Unless you are dropping the priming sugar in afterwards and stirring (which could lead to oxidation)?

Yes you want to siphon onto the priming sugar. I suggest using a secondary and placing some volume markers to get you close to your volume (fill the carboy with water, if that is what you are using, and mark off gallon increments, or use a plastic bucket that is already marked).

Thanks for the link to the calculator....

 

[Showdown]

That calculator is incorrect, as your beer will end up a little undercarbed.

For example: If you ferment at 62, bump to 68, then cold-crash to 40, you use the 68 temp. Because when your beer was 68, it had its lowest concentration of CO2. Some of that CO2 was driven off. Cold-crashing afterwards did not put any CO2 back (even though the beer had the capacity to hold more of it). At that point your yeast is dormant, you're close to final gravity and there won't be any appreciable CO2 production.

Better than being overcarbed and getting bottle bombs!

But if you re-read my original post, I used 4.5oz of priming sugar. I'm glad the calculator is incorrect, because if I followed the calculator, I should have only used 2.75oz. But I still have a volume issue, based on the smaller amount of beer I took off the trub.

 

[frazier]

Racking onto the sugar solution may be preferable, but it's hardly mandatory. Use your judgement - if you think you'll have major trub losses (using a clear jug helps get a visual on the trub layer), then siphon first, assess the volume, add appropriate priming sugar, and gently stir it in.

As for how to avoid trub losses - this is a process issue. Some level of trub losses are inevitable. Where is the trub coming from? Do you add massive dry-hops? Added loose to the fermentor? Do you dump everything in from the boil kettle? You could do what I do, which is scale up the recipes to 5.5, or even 6 gallons, in order to get a full 5 g at bottling.

Cheers,

 

[Dustbowl]

That calculator is incorrect, as your beer will end up a little undercarbed.

For example: If you ferment at 62, bump to 68, then cold-crash to 40, you use the 68 temp. Because when your beer was 68, it had its lowest concentration of CO2. Some of that CO2 was driven off. Cold-crashing afterwards did not put any CO2 back (even though the beer had the capacity to hold more of it). At that point your yeast is dormant, you're close to final gravity and there won't be any appreciable CO2 production.

Better than being overcarbed and getting bottle bombs!

Sorry, but this is not actually correct. As the temperature of a liquid drops, the solubility of all gases in the liquid increase. There is a substantial amount of CO2 present in the air above the liquid in the fermenter. The gas will absorb into the liquid until an equilibrium is reached or until the system is altered. This may or may not happen completely during the cold crash (it depends on many factors, including concentration CO2, surface area of the liquid in question, etc.).

With respect to the OP, your cold crashed bottles will likely be overcarbonated. If you bottled in standard 12 oz bottles their maximum pressure threshold is 3.0 volumes of CO2. If I were you I would be very concerned about bottle bombs. They can be very dangerous and I would monitor the batch closely. I would open a bottle everyday after the first week until the carb level reaches what you want, then stick them all in the fridge (to slow the yeast to a crawl) and drink them as fast as possible. Good luck!

 

[balrog]

ED: no need to add to what Dustbowl said

 

[ol-hazza]

Sorry, but this is not actually correct. As the temperature of a liquid drops, the solubility of all gases in the liquid increase. There is a substantial amount of CO2 present in the air above the liquid in the fermenter. The gas will absorb into the liquid until an equilibrium is reached or until the system is altered. This may or may not happen completely during the cold crash (it depends on many factors, including concentration CO2, surface area of the liquid in question, etc.).

What this guy said!

I ferment in a bucket with the best part of 2 gal head space and I had mad trouble with over carbed beers after cold crashing. Never any bottle bombs but some nasty gushers (I use different bottles to you though, 750ml swappa bottles, they are tough as old boots).

An option with over carbed beers is to purge the gas from them by slightly opening the lid, letting out some gas and re capping to seal. However this process is a right pain as i have had to purge some bottles twice a day for a week before they are at proper carbonation. At room temperature when you crack it and there is a slow formation of bubbles in the neck and a slight pffft they are about done.

 

[Showdown]

With respect to the OP, your cold crashed bottles will likely be overcarbonated. If you bottled in standard 12 oz bottles their maximum pressure threshold is 3.0 volumes of CO2. If I were you I would be very concerned about bottle bombs. They can be very dangerous and I would monitor the batch closely. I would open a bottle everyday after the first week until the carb level reaches what you want, then stick them all in the fridge (to slow the yeast to a crawl) and drink them as fast as possible. Good luck!

Thank you. That's what I assumed. If the yeast activity drops significantly in the fridge, does any carbonation still occur? Would it be prudent to just stick in the fridge at, say, day 4?

 

[Dustbowl]

Fermentation will continue, albeit very slowly, in the refrigerator. If you put them in too early, they will be flat, too late, and you have over-carbonated beers. You absolutely could start checking them at day four (just open one and try it) if would want to be extra safe. I know that just about every beer I've every made has still been slightly to mostly flat at one week. I've used a similar method of checking carbonation when making cider (bottled before fermentation finished for residual sweetness).

 

[bigdaddybrew]

I don't worry about a gently stirring in the priming sugar solution. I would rather be sure of my volume to get the carbonation right.

I don't calculate carbonation at cold crash temp because the beer isn't producing additional CO2 to be absorbed at that temp and I only cold crash with a small amount of head space. I suppose if you have 2 gallons of head space then it absorbs that CO2 and a bunch of room air but I wouldn't cold crash with that much head space to avoid the oxidation. So I use the high ferm temp as that is the maximum amount CO2 available before cold crashing. It works for me.

 

[Ole_Smoky]

This came at the perfect time, I'm about to bottle some beer tomorrow morning that's cold crashing. So ill be bottling the beer at about 35F but as soon as it's bottled they will go into a room sitting around 65F. I was under the impression that I put in the amount of priming sugar to carb at 65F since the beer will be warming up to that temp within a few hrs and will stay there?

 

[bigdaddybrew]

Ideally there is only one temperature the beer was at and you enter this into the priming sugar calculator. The idea being that a Lager fermented at 50f will have more CO2 in solution than an Ale fermenter at 69F so an Ale will need more priming sugar than a Lager. Cold beer absorbs/retains CO2 more easily than a warmer beer. The issue is when you cold crash does that change the amount of CO2 in the beer? Assuming the beer has stopped fermenting and there is zero head space then no it will not absorb more CO2 because none is being produced and there is no head space. As some have mentioned if you have a large amount head space full of CO2 then this will be absorbed and this may reduce the amount of priming sugar needed. How much? I'm not sure.

 

[KeninMN]

Here's a great article on using sugars in beer:

http://byo.com/grains/item/1441-sweetness-brewing-sugars-how-to-use-them

 

[Showdown]

Good read. Not one comment about how temperature affects the sugars. Not sure what to believe, but I'm going to play it safe with this batch just in case.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

Another thread with opinions regarding ferm temp and priming calculators... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=525009