Newb, High Gravity IPA

[jaylakejr]

Hello all I am still but a newb, I have just purchased BeerSmith and was curious as to how good it is at designing a recipe. I wanted to make a really strong IPA but yet balanced. I put my idea into Beersmith and I suppose it looks balanced according to the little sliders at the bottom. Before I drop almost 70$ in ingredients I would like to run it past the experts. Please critique the follow recipe and let me know if I am way off with it. Thanks so much in advance.

10Lb Pale LME
2 Lb Light DME
2Lb Vienna Malt
3.5 oz Simcoe Hops - Bittering
2.75 oz Centennial Hops - Aroma
1 WLP099 Super High Gravity
2 oz Centennial - Dry Hop

 

[slarkin712]

Maybe throw 1lb of crystal malts in (.5 lb carapils and .5 lb crystal 40or60) for color and flavor. Also, consider adding some sugar to lighten the body and help the yeast with more "easy" fermentables. This will dry the beer out a little so that it's not so sweet and cloying. The other thing to do when making a recipe is to consider the BU:GU ratio (bittering units to gravity units ratio). Most American IPAs have a BU:GU of 1 or so. So when you set up your hop schedule consider the number of IBUs you want relative to OG. For instance, an for OG of 1.065 would need 65 IBUs to get a BU:GU of 1. There's some good info about this technique for recipe design in Ray Daniels Designing Great Beers book. There's agood article about designing a double IPA here:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/zymurgy/free-downloads
called "Brew a Double IPA" by Vinnie Cilurzo. Check it out.

 

[TarheelBrew13]

If you want detailed comments on your recipe, you will need to post a little more information. What is your O.G.? What is the hop schedule (ie: when will each hop be added and how much)? What is your estimated IBU's?

Just guessing from your recipe, I would make a couple comments. 2 oz. of Centennial to dry hop will give you a nice full aroma. So I think that's a good addition. Your 2.75 oz "Aroma Hop" addition seems a bit strange. The aroma you attain from dry hopping will certainly be different from aroma attained from kettle additions but I'm guessing this will be more of a flavor component than aroma. As a flavor addition, I think this is a good amount. 3.5 oz of Simcoe as a bittering hop seems like a waste. Simcoe has some amazing flavor/aroma qualities and using it before 30min in the boil means you aren't going to be left with any of them. I would pick something that is high in alpha acids and use that instead. Personally, I like hops low in cohumulone as I am a very strong taster of this in beer but I know lots of people that prefer hops with high cohumulone percentages so you may need to experiment with that. Chinook or Columbus might be a good substitution for your bittering hop.

As far as the grain bill, what are you doing with the Vienna Malt? Is that an extract or are you steeping that? Also, if I were you, I don't think I would mess around with using Pale and Light DME. Just use one or the other and modify the color and flavor with specialty steeping grains. I haven't done extract in a long time but I have read several articles that suggest using only one type of lighter colored extract for all your beers and modifying them with specialty grain steeping. A typical IPA extract recipe would be made from Light DME and then steeped with some Crystal Malt usually around 40-60 degrees Lovibond. If you are looking for an IPA with more bready qualities and to keep in line with what you have in your recipe, I would suggest steeping a little munich malt in a Light DME base.

Yeast, I don't think you need a super high gravity yeast for this beer. So unless you just want to use that yeast for its other parameters, you could use any yeast you like. Most people seem to use WLP001 or WLP002 in there IPA's with my personal preference toward WLP002.

Good luck with your beer and grats on Beersmith. I love that program.

 

[jaylakejr]

Wow thanks for all the good info.

OG estimated at 1.091

I have adjusted the recipe as follows:

8 oz Cara Pils
8 oz Crystal 40L
10 Lb Pale LME
2 oz Chinook added at boil
3 oz Simcoe added after 45 min
White Labs WLP007 Dry English Yeast
2 oz Centennial Dry Hop

Does this look better to you guys?

 

[TimTrone]

Wow thanks for all the good info.

OG estimated at 1.091

I have adjusted the recipe as follows:

8 oz Cara Pils
8 oz Crystal 40L
10 Lb Pale LME
2 oz Chinook added at boil
3 oz Simcoe added after 45 min
White Labs WLP007 Dry English Yeast
2 oz Centennial Dry Hop

Does this look better to you guys?

Don't add the carapils. Extract brews in general seem to finish at a higher gravity, so adding non fermentables wouldn't be advantageous. If this was a all grain batch I would say add it.

Something else I would recommend is to do 1.5oz simcoe, and 1oz centennial at flame out. Then do the remaining 1.5oz simcoe and 1oz centennial in the dry hop. That will give you a more complex hop aroma.

FYI 007 is a good yeast choice

 

[slarkin712]

I actually like the Vienna malt in an IPA, or even Victory. It adds some nice maltiness. I wouldn't go much more than 1lb though. You need to adjust your hops schedule. Here's a simplistic way to think of hop additions:
1) Bittering: Added prior to 30min is bittering - this gives mostly bitter taste, with little to no flavor and aroma from the hops.
2) Flavor: Added after 30min to 5-10 min - this gives some bittering, but also flavor and some aroma.
3) Aroma: Added last 5 min - this gives almost no bittering, some flavor and a good deal of aroma. Dry hopping can be considered as an aroma hop addition

In your case, without the use of software and not knowing the AA% on your hops, here goes:
1 oz Chinook 60 min
1 oz Simcoe 60 min
1 oz Chinook 20 min
.5 oz Simcoe 15 min
.5 oz Centennial 10 min
.5 oz Centennial 0 min (at flame out)
.5 oz Simcoe 0 min (at flame out)
1 oz Simcoe dry hop
1 oz Centennial dry hop

As I said, I don't know what IBU value this will give you, but it gives you an example hop schedule. I like most of my hops to be added late in the boil to emphasize flavor and aroma. This technique is called hop bursting and generally it yields a less harsh bittering with more flavor and aroma. Good luck!

 

[nateburn]

I would NOT use the high gravity yeast. I used WLP099 for a batch of Pliny the Elder Clone and I was not happy with the results. It fermented to a 1.000000000 FG giving it a very dry alcoholic taste. I should have trusted my instinct and not trusted the guy at the LHBS.

I would use a WPL001 with a starter.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

general guidelines i stick with for a nice IPA. shoot for ~50 IBU from your bittering addition, but please don't use hops like simcoe, it's a waste of a good aroma hop and we'll all regret it later this year when they're in short supply. go big on the hops from 15 mins on out, i like to spread a few ozs over the last 10-15 mins of the boil. a big addition at flameout that you let steep for ~10 mins before chilling does wonders for hops flavor and aroma. dry hop generously with one or all of the late hops, but careful not to dry hop too long, 5-7 days seems to do the trick. for specialty malts, keep caramel types under 10% of the total bill, malts like victory/biscuit, vienna, munich, are all great in an IPA. Munich and Vienna need to be mashed, so maybe go with caramunich or caravienne as part of your caramel-type malts since this is an extract recipe. also, a high grav yeast isn't needed, something like 05/1056 will work fine, 1272 would be great if you want a bit of yeast character. and personally, i find the most enjoyable IPAs have carbonation on the low end for the style, so keep that in mind when you're priming.

 

[jaylakejr]

Wow I went to lunch and I came back to all this amazing info. Thanks guys

Here is what I have come up with now for this recipe based off of all the great recommendations:

8 oz Crystal 40L
8 oz Vienna Malt
10 lb Pale LME
1.5 lb Clear Candi Sugar

I think I would stick to the White Labs WLP007 Dry English Yeast

Hop Schedule
60 min 2 oz Chinook hops
50 min 1 oz Chinook hops
40 min 1 oz Chinook hops
30 min 1 oz Chinook hops
20 min 1 oz Chinook hops
15 min 1 oz Centenial
10 min 1 oz Simcoe
Flame out .5 oz Centenial
Flame out .5 oz Simcoe


5-7 day dry hop 2oz Simcoe

According to Beer smith this would make:
OG of 1.084
IBU of 89.6
Estimated FG of 1.015 with an estimated ABV of 9.1%


Any comments? Thanks again for all your feedback!

 

[stubbornman]

Beersmith is awesome. The trick is to have your equipment entered in it correctly. IE if you leave a gallon behind in your mash tun or boil kettle, how much heat loss for your mash tun, etc.

If you have your equipment profile dialed in, it's excellent.

I think your updated recipe looks good.

 

[slarkin712]

I don't like to keep futzing with your recipe, but I want you to get a good beer.. so. That is a lot of chinook hops. I've read that too much Chinook can cause harsh "catty"(whatever that means) flavors. I'd get rid of the 40 and 50 min additions. Maybe put 1 oz Chinook at flameout and another oz in dry hopping. I mentioned BU:GU ratio as a general guideline, and it doesn't need to be right at 1. In fact with late hop additions and dry hopping you'll get a big hop flavor with fewer IBUs.

 

[Poobah58]

The 50 and 40 minute additions are a waste! Some say even 30 minute is (I like it). Use some at 60 min and the rest at the end of the boil. You get the most flavor at 20 minutes and most aroma at 7 minutes. I like 60-30-15-5-0-DH additions myself.

 

[MikeSteele]

Something seems fishy about your IBUs. That is a TON of Chinook hops. I recently made a Chinook IPA with 0.5oz 60 min, 1oz 30min, and 1.5oz at 5min and I believe the IBU calc was 78!

I love Chinook hops so that recipe looks good to me. It may be a bit too unbalanced with the hops though, I have to believe something is not right with that IBU value.

Looks good other than that!

I just realized my reply may be confusing, I was commenting on this:
Hop Schedule
60 min 2 oz Chinook hops
50 min 1 oz Chinook hops
40 min 1 oz Chinook hops
30 min 1 oz Chinook hops
20 min 1 oz Chinook hops
15 min 1 oz Centenial
10 min 1 oz Simcoe
Flame out .5 oz Centenial
Flame out .5 oz Simcoe

 

[jaylakejr]

You know, now that I look at it again it does seem off. I wonder if something got out of whack with beer smith. Is there a substitute for Chinook? I think I will try the sub in the same recipe and see if it comes out the same.

 

[TimTrone]

You know, now that I look at it again it does seem off. I wonder if something got out of whack with beer smith. Is there a substitute for Chinook? I think I will try the sub in the same recipe and see if it comes out the same.

Don't quote me on this, but I think nugget and Columbus are very similar. Don't be afraid to use chinook though. Its a great hop, as a bittering or aroma hop.

 

[MikeSteele]

You know, now that I look at it again it does seem off. I wonder if something got out of whack with beer smith. Is there a substitute for Chinook? I think I will try the sub in the same recipe and see if it comes out the same.

Just for fun I ran your recipe through BeerSmith. It almost exploded. If you do full boil, you're looking at a calculated 242 IBUs. If you're doing a partial boil, 125 IBUs.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.13 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.30 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.084 SG
Estimated Color: 11.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 88.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 0.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 1 4.0 %
8.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 4.0 %
10 lbs Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 3 80.0 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 4 12.0 %
1.00 oz Chinook [11.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 40.1 IBUs
0.25 oz Chinook [11.80 %] - Boil 50.0 min Hop 6 9.5 IBUs
0.25 oz Chinook [11.80 %] - Boil 40.0 min Hop 7 8.8 IBUs
0.25 oz Chinook [11.80 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 7.7 IBUs
0.25 oz Chinook [11.80 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 9 6.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 16.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast 11 -

I think you should do to your recipe whatever sounds right to you. To me, it sounds out of balance. I would reduce your 60 minute Chinook addition to 1oz, and the rest of your Chinook additions to 0.25oz. This will put your IBUs around 90. For a high-gravity IPA that will provide a better balance but still give you a extra bitter bite.

Chinook is a fantastic hop, don't let the pansies out there convince you it's too harsh. Let us know what you end up doing and make sure to come back when you've had a taste to let everyone know how it went.

 

[jaylakejr]

Whats happening in beersmith is this.
I am doing a 3 Gal extract recipe, batch size is 5 gal est efficiency is 72%.
As an experiment I added only hops to this recipe

.5 oz chinook at 60
.5 oz chinook at 30
1 oz simcoe at 10
2 oz simcoe dry hop 5 days

this alone got my IBU's to 87.5 around where I want it (my goal is around 90)

now as soon as I add my 10 lbs of Pale LME the IBU's drop down to 24.9

I am so confused right now....

 

[MikeSteele]

That does seem like low IBUs, but it's probably because with your low boil volume and high gravity (made much higher during the boil by doing partial extract), you will get very low hop utilization. Check out How To Brew for a better understanding:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-5.html

One way around this is doing a late extract addition. Basically you boil for the first 40 minutes or so with about 1/3 to 1/2 of your malt, and add the rest in later. This will greatly increase your utilization, and in my opinion create much better tasting beer. Beersmith allows for you to take this into account.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

That does seem like low IBUs, but it's probably because with your low boil volume and high gravity (made much higher during the boil by doing partial extract), you will get very low hop utilization. Check out How To Brew for a better understanding:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-5.html

Palmer's since gone back on this and has actually said that hops utilization may not actually be related to the gravity of the wort in the boil. i'm not trying to argue or anything, just pointing out that this may not actually be the case.

 

[jaylakejr]

Ok I think I get it now. Here is version 3

8 oz 60L Caramel
8 oz Vienna Malt
5Lbs LME Golden Light at 60
1.5 oz Chinook at 60
.5 oz Centennial at 60
5Lbs 4.8 oz LME Golden Light at 30
1Lb Candi Sugar Clear at 30
.5 oz Centennial at 30
.5 oz Chinook at 30
1 oz Simcoe at 10
White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale
Dry Hop for 5 days on 2 oz Simcoe

any comments on this version?

Thanks guys

 

[foltster]

Vienna should be mashed, I have not seen it used in many extract recipes.

 

[MikeSteele]

Ok I think I get it now. Here is version 3

8 oz 60L Caramel
8 oz Vienna Malt
5Lbs LME Golden Light at 60
1.5 oz Chinook at 60
.5 oz Centennial at 60
5Lbs 4.8 oz LME Golden Light at 30
1Lb Candi Sugar Clear at 30
.5 oz Centennial at 30
.5 oz Chinook at 30
1 oz Simcoe at 10
White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale
Dry Hop for 5 days on 2 oz Simcoe

any comments on this version?

Thanks guys

Vienna does need to be mashed. Try another specialty grain. Once you substitute that everyone else looks good to me.

 

[jaylakejr]

Caramunich maybe ?