New to control panel brewing - need a little help

[maierhof]

Ok - here I am again posting about another project - thanks HBT!
This brewing technique one is a little more tricky to find out in a thread than i can find so far,.. so I am just posting a direct question in hopes of a direct answer.

I am just about done with my upgrade build to 11g and the final part is finishing the control panel.
One question that keeps coming into my mind: how do I use it correctly?
I could go the trial and error formula but in this day and age where so many have done it before...

System: cooler mash, lp keggle boil, hex electric 5500w 30 amp (37' of copper coil) in an 8g morebeer heavy duty 8 gal.

Question: if I want to just keep the mash at a certain temp - I raise the temp in the hex to what?
Let me be more specific - if I had a two step mash and wanted to do a step up - what temp should I put my hex pid control to to raise it?
and then keep it maintained?

I know this may seem like a good figure it out on your own thing, but I get the sense there might be a little bit more to it. I have heard set the temp for 190 for a 154 target but really, that high? I know all systems are not created equally and there are extreme temp fluctuations in regions but really? Or maybe I just misread something one night... please tell me what you set your PID for when aiming for what temp?

 

[stlbeer]

Regarding the part about setting the temp at 190 for a 154 target. Not hardly. Maybe set it 1* higher as you'll loose some heat pumping the wort. But realize that the portion of wort that is in the HEX will be the temp you set the for it. The rest of the tun will probably be a degree or 2 lower. When you're pumping the wort, you're also pumping the proteins and enzymes as well. If you set it too high you'll denature the enzymes and then what do you have? Not what you expect.

You didn't mention pump but I assume you have one if you're using a HEX. Your flow should be from MT to pump to HEX to MT. Throttle the flow on the pump outlet. You should have a ball valve there. How big is your pump? Pumping through the HEX back to the MT could be a challenge with 37' of copper (the smaller the diameter the more restriction). I would think you get by on half that much copper for the HEX.

There are many threads on here about HERMS brewing.

 

[maierhof]

Regarding the part about setting the temp at 190 for a 154 target. Not hardly. Maybe set it 1* higher as you'll loose some heat pumping the wort. But realize that the portion of wort that is in the HEX will be the temp you set the for it. The rest of the tun will probably be a degree or 2 lower. When you're pumping the wort, you're also pumping the proteins and enzymes as well. If you set it too high you'll denature the enzymes and then what do you have? Not what you expect.

You didn't mention pump but I assume you have one if you're using a HEX. Your flow should be from MT to pump to HEX to MT. Throttle the flow on the pump outlet. You should have a ball valve there. How big is your pump? Pumping through the HEX back to the MT could be a challenge with 37' of copper (the smaller the diameter the more restriction). I would think you get by on half that much copper for the HEX.

There are many threads on here about HERMS brewing.

Ok - yeah 190 just sounded nuts to me too hence the post... must have been drinkin n reading again

So the degree offset is around one or two for the mash. That sounds more rational...

I have 1/2" copper coil but could cut a little down now that realize that all my bending and shaping of this thing may have left a venturi valve... gotta check that out. Thank you for the comment.

While we are here could I ask a question on this?
What should the min offset between the element and the coil be? Right now it is about a half - full inch...

I have a new chugger center inlet and it is a valved outflow.
So pump before the hex - got it - especially for this pump too I think.

Thank you for your help on this!

 

[kal]

Your setup sounds similar to mine (HERMS for heating). I have my HERMS coil in the HLT and recirc the HLT water and mash wort 100% of the time while mashing.

I simply set the HLT temp to whatever I want to mash temp to be. So if I want to do a step mash that goes 142 -> 155F -> 168F, I simply raise the temp on the HLT whenever I want to go to the next step.

Complete gory details with lots of pictures in my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP article here:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Kal

 

[stlbeer]

What should the min offset between the element and the coil be? Right now it is about a half - full inch...

I don't think it's going to matter the offset, however, if you aren't already, and as Kal stated, you should have some kind of recirculation or agitation in the kettle where your HEX coil is so as to prevent temperature stratification and have the same temperature throughout the HEX.

Some people use a pump to constantly recirculate the water. I've also heard of using aquarium air pumps to cause agitation and some folks use electric motors with a long stir rod attached.

 

[maierhof]

Your setup sounds similar to mine (HERMS for heating).

It should - I used the heck of of your site when learning all this stuff lol.
You were one of the main reasons I chose to go electric in the hex.

I have to take a moment and publicly say "Thank You" from the bottom of my heart, Kal.
Without your site I dont think I would be where I am today. I really mean that.
You obviously took your time and did that site right - but more than that - the incredible detail you went into just make it an online goldmine for information on electric brewing. You are truly a good man. Thank you...

I have my HERMS coil in the HLT and recirc the HLT water and mash wort 100% of the time while mashing.

That was/is my intention too. The problem was that I was just losing too much heat in the mash tun so this was the most logical next step...

I simply set the HLT temp to whatever I want to mash temp to be. So if I want to do a step mash that goes 142 -> 155F -> 168F, I simply raise the temp on the HLT whenever I want to go to the next step.

Complete gory details with lots of pictures in my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP article here:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Kal

I have been all over your site and love those details. I am just an information hound and always want more...heheheh
So it really is that simple then? Wow my brew days are going to be a lot easier!!

It has been over 8months since my last brew day... the anticipation is almost palpable. =;>

 

[maierhof]

I don't think it's going to matter the offset,

Really?
I am worried about the actual element getting too close to one section of the coil for fear of scorching the wort... or are my fears irrational?

however, if you aren't already, and as Kal stated, you should have some kind of recirculation or agitation in the kettle where your HEX coil is so as to prevent temperature stratification and have the same temperature throughout the HEX.

Some people use a pump to constantly recirculate the water. I've also heard of using aquarium air pumps to cause agitation and some folks use electric motors with a long stir rod attached.

Yeah - I was planning on just stirring but everyone keeps bringing this subject up so I guess I am going to have to take a closer look at solving that situation too now. Thanks, and I was almost done with all my projects... lol =;>

 

[kal]

You're welcome maierhof!

I'm curious however how you're losing all that heat in the MLT. Are you recirc'ing with the MLT pump open 100%?

I know some brewers have a drop in temp between MLT and HLT but I don't - at least it's less than 1 degree as it doesn't show up on the PIDs. I recalibrated my temp probes recently with my ThermaPen to make sure I'm not missing something - they were still accurate. I do use thicking 7/8" OD silicone hose instead of the 3/4" that most people use so it may insulate better (?).

Kal

 

[kal]

Really? I am worried about the actual element getting too close to one section of the coil for fear of scorching the wort... or are my fears irrational?

Don't worry about it. It's not an issue.

Yeah - I was planning on just stirring but everyone keeps bringing this subject up so I guess I am going to have to take a closer look at solving that situation too now. Thanks, and I was almost done with all my projects... lol =;>

It's going to be very painful (on your arm) to stir for 60+ mins. Not to mention you're going to lose heat with the lid off.

Kal

 

[maierhof]

I'm curious however how you're losing all that heat in the MLT. Are you recirc'ing with the MLT pump open 100%?

I know some brewers have a drop in temp between MLT and HLT but I don't - at least it's less than 1 degree as it doesn't show up on the PIDs. I recalibrated my temp probes recently with my ThermaPen to make sure I'm not missing something - they were still accurate. I do use thicking 7/8" OD silicone hose instead of the 3/4" that most people use so it may insulate better (?).

Kal

I have never done an actual HERMS run yet. The system I had been brewing on was just a mash tun and a boil kettle - only recently picked up a pump.

The problem with the mash tun losing heat was two folded. One - me being a dumba__ and rushing into mashing without preheating the tun correctly. It is actually pretty comical really - I have gotten so excited for the mash that I have forgotten twice to preheat. Two - perfection is my goal. I cant stand the loss of a single degree or two... which is what I was getting and more everytime I mashed.

I dont know about that, as I havent gotten there yet. I will be calibrating these friday if all goes well.
Still need to put this thing together... lol

 

[maierhof]

It's going to be very painful (on your arm) to stir for 60+ mins. Not to mention you're going to lose heat with the lid off.
Kal

Alright - yet another project - swmbo should be thrilled... lol.
Ordered this motor tonight: http://www.herbach.com/Merchant2/me...&Product_Code=TM89MTR5758/C&Category_Code=MTR

Got an extra pid just sitting taking readings - better put it to work!
It was also a good thing that i ordered a few extra ssr's too.
Much less expensive than another pump... thanks guys!

 

[maierhof]

Ok - here is the first rough draft of the final assembly for my 11g system.
I had a few days off last week so I hammered through a lot of this in three days. Somehow I decided that this would all be better if I made myself a stand too, so I used the redwood that used to be my driveway gate before the wind turned it into a kite. Then I found some old slate that I had leftover.

So from left to right electric Hex, Mash, lp Boil.