Need some future-proofing advice on running electricity to my garage

[hezagenius]

I'm having an electrician run a line to my garage for brewing purposes. My original plan was to have a 20A line to run an induction burner (Avantco 3500W). I believe the plug on the burner is 6-20P.

Now I'm thinking maybe I want to have some sort of future-proofing in case I decide to do something that needs more power. My house has 200A service. I'm not an electrician so my knowledge on this subject is fairly limited.

Am I able to run a higher amp line to my garage and still be able to use it for the induction burner?
Is there some amp number that I should ask the electrician to run to future-proof me for whatever I may choose to do in the future?
Does a 30A (or higher) line have a different socket than a 20A line? Or is the 6-20P plug standard for all higher amp devices?
If a 30A (or higher) line has a different socket, does an adapter exist to convert it to a 6-20P socket?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Ask the electrician to put a 100 amp sub-panel in your garage. The wire to go from your main panel to the sub-panel will be pricey, but not as pricey as doing it twice. You can then run circuits at whatever amperage you want to where-ever you need - welder, table saw, electric car charger, brewery, etc.

Others will give you more details, but plugs and receptacles are generally standardized at specific ampacities. Within reason you can go lower, i.e., a 30-amp draw on a 50-amp circuit, but not vice-versa.

 

[hezagenius]

@mirthfuldragon

Question - if I have a 100A subpanel installed in the garage, does that require that all the rest of the wiring in the house is only able to draw on the other 100A?

 

[shoengine]

No. If you look at your panel, it is very likely the breakers add up to much more than the main breaker.

Practically, you shouldn't really be drawing more than 80% (or whatever is the rule of thumb is for sizing) of your main from any source. Just specifying 100A at another panel doesn't draw that automatically from your main.

I put in a 50A sub panel in my detached garage originally for lighting and for some computer work (which would only require around 20A), but I knew that I would be using larger equipment than that later on. Always size up. Four 4AWG conductors can be pricey, but adding new capacity later is worse!

 

[mirthfuldragon]

@mirthfuldragon

Question - if I have a 100A subpanel installed in the garage, does that require that all the rest of the wiring in the house is only able to draw on the other 100A?

No. Amperage is the total supply available. Amperage is "drawn" by activity. For example, your 3,500 watt burner at 100% power at 220 volts draws 15.9 amps (3500w ÷ 220v = 15.9A). If the burner is at 50% power, it probably draws around 8 amps. Circuit breakers act as gates that will close if the amps drawn by the circuit exceed a specified amount.

 

[z-bob]

A 60A panel is pretty cheap, and can be supplied by (IIRC) 4 gauge aluminum service entrance cable. There's nothing wrong with using aluminum for 30A and larger circuits if you use the right connectors, and black goop where appropriate. I don't remember if I use #4 or #3 overhead cable for mine -- it was something called "Periwinkle". I only ran 3 wires, but I think the code now requires all 4.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

[...] There's nothing wrong with using aluminum[...]

Check your local building codes first though. Where I live, aluminum is a not allowed in anything residential, period.

 

[shoengine]

Copper really isn't that expensive. I had to go over 60 feet to my detached garage underground with four conductors each 6AWG stranded, and the costs and efforts installing them far outweighed the cost of the cables.

 

[hezagenius]

I'm back with more questions before the electricians actually start doing their thing. I decided to have a 100A subpanel installed in my garage and then will have a few outlets come out of that. I'll have an induction burner that has a 6-20P (240V) and I'll want to run a controller with a 5-20P (120V) so I'll need 2 different outlets for those.

My questions:
Is the difference between 5-20 and 6-20 that the 5-20 is 120V and the 6-20 is 240V?

And, can I have a 6-30R outlet and plug the 6-20P induction burner into that using 6-20Rx6-30P adapter? Or will it fry the 20A induction burner by plugging it into a 30A outlet?

 

[z-bob]

I'm back with more questions before the electricians actually start doing their thing. I decided to have a 100A subpanel installed in my garage and then will have a few outlets come out of that. I'll have an induction burner that has a 6-20P (240V) and I'll want to run a controller with a 5-20P (120V) so I'll need 2 different outlets for those.

My questions:

1. Is the difference between 5-20 and 6-20 that the 5-20 is 120V and the 6-20 is 240V?
2. And, can I have a 6-30R outlet and plug the 6-20P induction burner into that using 6-20Rx6-30P adapter? Or will it fry the 20A induction burner by plugging it into a 30A outlet?

1. Yes. And they are shaped a little different (IIRC, the sideways prong is on the other side.)
2. That will work fine. But the burner will not be protected if it malfunctions and draws, say, 28 amps, and its cord might not be able to handle that. I wouldn't worry about that because you will be there to see it in the unlikely event it happens.

 

[hezagenius]

And related to my 2nd question, if I have a 5-20R outlet and want to plug in a 5-15P using a 5-15R x 5-20P adapter, in theory, that should work? I'll just need to monitor the cord to make sure I'm not overheating it.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

And related to my 2nd question, if I have a 5-20R outlet and want to plug in a 5-15P using a 5-15R x 5-20P adapter, in theory, that should work? I'll just need to monitor the cord to make sure I'm not overheating it.

You do not need the adapter.

I'll have an induction burner that has a 6-20P (240V) and I'll want to run a controller with a 5-20P (120V) so I'll need 2 different outlets for those.

Are you looking to control the induction burner from its native controller, or from the same controller as the 120v line? If you are running everything from the same controller, I would run a 30a 240v line into the control panel and split everything out from there.

240v is two 120v legs. Breaker panels have two separate bus bars, one for each leg. A 240v breaker simply connects to both bars, providing two legs of power. If you run both legs to your panel (along with a ground and a neutral), you can tap both off the single supply line. If you need more than 30 amps total draw at any given time, then simply use a 50a 240v line going into your panel and put fuses in your panel to protect individual components.

You don't need a 240v and a 120v supply line going into a panel - the 220v line already has the 120v line include with it.

 

[hezagenius]

My plan was to be able to run the 20A induction burner from its own 30A outlet with an adapter and then plug a 20A heating element into the controller along with the pump and run that from a 20A outlet and do that all in the garage. And I would still have the flexibility to brew in the house and use a 15A element and pump and use the stovetop as a supplemental heat source.

I was looking at the 120V Tabletop Controller (WS-2500) from Auber that has a 5-20P plug for power and can receive a 5-15P/5-20P from the element and a 5-15P from the pump.

Alternatively, I could find a different controller that was 240V and could handle the induction burner. But I would like to retain the flexibility of brewing inside or outside and I think the 120V controller does that for me.

 

[z-bob]

-20R outlets have a "sideways T" shaped terminal so they can accept a -15P or -20P plug. You may have 5-20R outlets in your kitchen; take a look at one.

 

[hezagenius]

-20R outlets have a "sideways T" shaped terminal so they can accept a -15P or -20P plug. You may have 5-20R outlets in your kitchen; take a look at one.

That reminds me of another question. I have several breakers on my basement panel that are for outlets/lights in my kitchen that are labeled 20A on the panel but the outlets are 15A on the wall (no sideways slot). Can those 15A outlets be swapped out to 20A outlets if they are on a 20A breaker? Maybe they are 15A outlets to account for the lights drawing some of the electricity?

 

[z-bob]

They are 15A outlets because those were cheaper when the house was built, and the electric code allows it. 20A outlets were generally only used singly for things like air conditioners. If there's 12 gauge wire (and there should be) for the circuits, you can replace with 5-20R outlets. Use GFCI outlets if the boxes are deep enough.

 

[hezagenius]

If you have a 1650W element which pulls 13.75A (1650/120) and a 1.9A pump (according to Chugger's website), and you plug both of them into a 120V 15A controller and plug that controller into a 120V 15A GFCI outlet, and have both the element and the pump running, will that always trip the outlet? Do devices like pumps and elements operate in a binary state, either off (0A) or on (max amps)? Or do they fluctuate in their usage of amps? It seems like a pump would fluctuate based on how high they are pushing water and the viscosity of the fluid they are pushing, but an element, I'm not so sure about.

 

[z-bob]

That 15A GFCI is probably on a 20A circuit with a 20A feed-thru rating. So you're not dancing on the edge near as much as you think you are. I don't know about the controller. It's not going to trip the outlet regardless (unless there's a ground fault)

 

[itsnotrequired]

That reminds me of another question. I have several breakers on my basement panel that are for outlets/lights in my kitchen that are labeled 20A on the panel but the outlets are 15A on the wall (no sideways slot). Can those 15A outlets be swapped out to 20A outlets if they are on a 20A breaker? Maybe they are 15A outlets to account for the lights drawing some of the electricity?

if there is only a single receptacle on a 20 amp circuit, it needs to be rated 20 amps. otherwise, any combination of 15 and 20 amp receptacles is acceptable on that 20 amp circuit. and note for the single 20 amp circuit, it is truly a single receptacle that you can only plug one thing into. most convenience receptacles are duplex receptacles, allowing two devices to be plugged in. so it would be acceptable to place a single 15 amp duplex receptacle on a dedicated 20 amp circuit.

If you have a 1650W element which pulls 13.75A (1650/120) and a 1.9A pump (according to Chugger's website), and you plug both of them into a 120V 15A controller and plug that controller into a 120V 15A GFCI outlet, and have both the element and the pump running, will that always trip the outlet? Do devices like pumps and elements operate in a binary state, either off (0A) or on (max amps)? Or do they fluctuate in their usage of amps? It seems like a pump would fluctuate based on how high they are pushing water and the viscosity of the fluid they are pushing, but an element, I'm not so sure about.

elements are either on or off. pump amp draw will fluctuate with load but at this scale, not by much. when sizing circuits, determining maximum load, etc., use the amp rating of the pump (which is what it draws at rated voltage and rated horsepower).

 

[hezagenius]

Sounds like if I want to safely run a 13.75A element indoors, I should put the controller/element on one GFCI outlet and the pump on a separate GFCI outlet.

Or buy a RipTide that pulls 0.75A instead of the 1.9A that the Chugger pulls.

 

[hezagenius]

What is the recommended wall outlet for 240V 30A? 4 prong, 3 prong, locking, not locking?

 

[hezagenius]

Also, is there a certain kind of subpanel that I need to install? Do I just tell the electrician I need a 100A subpanel, or do I need to be more specific?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Also, is there a certain kind of subpanel that I need to install? Do I just tell the electrician I need a 100A subpanel, or do I need to be more specific?

Explain to the electrician what you want, and what you intend to do with it, and he or she will handle the rest. Make sure he or she gets a permit as well.

Subpanels are rated for maximum amperage (most are 100+) and by the number of spaces they have. In my mind, bigger is better. When a 40-space panel is maybe 10% more than a 30-space panel, if you have space for the 40, install the 40.

Also, make sure the sub-panel is the same type of breaker as your main panel. A competent electrician should do this automatically, just so you don't have to deal with different types of breakers. And make sure the brew rig is on a GFCI circuit. That breaker alone is probably $70-$100.

As for your earlier question, you want a 4 prong outlet to feed your future brew rig. A 4 prong outlet is a ground/earth, the two hot legs, and a neutral. That is current code. Three prongs are still allowed for dryers only (I think . . .not an electrician), but honestly they should all be upgraded to 4 prong.

Like any home improvement project, shop around, get multiple estimates, and ask all the "stupid" questions you want. Be comfortable with your electrician, and if not, look for a new one.

 

[hezagenius]

Hmm. Does the GFCI breaker fit into the panel or does the panel itself need to be a GFCI panel? The electrician said it doesn't need to be GFCI which has me wondering. He said it doesn't need to be GFCI since you aren't "in" it like you would be for a spa.

I am having a 20A 120V (5-20) outlet, a 20A 240V (6-20) outlet and a 30A 240V (L14-30) outlet. The 5-20 outlet is a GFCI outlet. The other 2 are not. Potentially I will run a 30A controller (pump and element) on the 30A outlet. I will run a 20A controller (pump and element) on the 5-20 outlet. I will run an induction burner on the 6-20 outlet.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

The electrician said it doesn't need to be GFCI which has me wondering. He said it doesn't need to be GFCI since you aren't "in" it like you would be for a spa.

A GFCI breaker is a standard breaker with GFCI protection built-in. I would be looking for a new electrician at this point. Just one spill and you are "in" it the same as you would be for a hot tub, and one loose wire or bad connection, or your dog/kid/spouse/brewbuddy trips over or knocks something over and then everybody is dead. The electrician should have clarified it with you or at least asked follow-up questions.

 

[z-bob]

The electrician is right that the code doesn't require GFCI. Just tell him that's your requirement.

 

[itsnotrequired]

The electrician is right that the code doesn't require GFCI. Just tell him that's your requirement.

correct, not a code requirement but still a very good idea. you may not be 'in' the equipment but think about it, wet hands and electricity do not mix. i would not make the entire subpanel gfci protected, just the circuit(s) in the sub you use for brewing. you wouldn't want the lights turning off on a gfci incident.

 

[hezagenius]

I told him I wanted GFCI for them since I was the one stirring liquid with a metal spoon. He said if I ordered them, he'd swap the regular ones for GFCI breakers. The 5-20 outlet is a GFCI outlet but the breaker is not GFCI. He said it should be OK as long as something on that circuit was GFCI. Is that true?

 

[z-bob]

Yes. GFCI outlets are a lot cheaper than GFCI breakers.