My Lupulin Threshold Shift / Questions about dry hopping

[maierhof]

Ok - so I have been brewing now for over three years and have been up here since apr 2013 reading... a quick shout out to all of you that have helped me along the way! Without this site - I have no idea where I would be...

I have all of the equipment necessary for brewing almost anything I want to at an 11gal rate. I have done almost all the DIY hacks to keep this obsession cost effective... now what?

Ok - I have finally done my first dry hop.
Yes yes yes - it took a while but hey - for a long time I just didn't like any high IBU beers. It looks like that is changing aka my My Lupulin Threshold Shift. I saw this when I went up to Russian River Brewing for this years release of Pliny the Younger and laughed when I saw it.

Since that release I have done a lot of reading on this subject and have secured my SureScreens. I just put in 1 oz of Centennial and 1 oz of Cascade into an APA/WLP001 in two different five gal cornies and am starting this test today. I am ready for the dry hop experience but I have a few questions for those that have been doing this a while.

I have heard that dry hop time and temp is just a few days at ale fermentation temps but the "shine" of the hoppiness fades more rapidly.
AND
I have heard that dry hop time at lower temps for longer is better to keep that hoppy "shine" going longer.

I want to hear how long and
I want to hear at what temp do you do it?

Come on - tell me about what you do?!

 

[philosofool]

My advice is that you should find a process and stick with it. For more hop flavor, add more hops.

I dry hop ten days at fermentation temperature with whole hops, 7 days with pellets. I try to rouse the settled hops at the bottom once or twice during the dry hoping too, as this prevents the oils from getting stuck in the crud and not in the beer. I like to add my hops right when the airlock is bubbling around once per minute. This means that enough CO2 is made to pushout any oxygen that gets into the fermenter. Others point to scrubbing from that CO2, which reduces hop flavors, as a reason to add the dry hops after primary is done. I've never seen a careful study of these tradeoffs. I don't use a secondary fermenter when dry hopping.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

According to the hops book most of the aroma you will get from the dry hops is in the beer in the first 24 hours. Firestone walker and RR dry hop very differently and both make award winning IPAs. The common thing between the two breweries is that they dry hop multiple times with smaller additions.

My experience has shown me that BIG DIPAs need about 1.5#/bbl dry hop and small session-type IPAs need .75#/bbl. My "normal" IPA gets some where in between. On the smaller dry hop additions I use one dry hop session and the bigger ones get 2 dry hop sessions. I cold crash and, using my conical, dump the junk off before warming it back up to dry hop again.

The temperature at which you dry hop only has 2 things that matter. 1) Can you consistently hold that temperature so that you can make the exact same beer again? 2) Is it warm enough to extract the aroma in a timely fashion.

Dry hopping at lower temperatures takes longer. But don't take that to an extreme and crank it up to 80 to dry hop. I usually hold around 68. It works well for MY equipment.

Another thing that trips up big beers is oxidation. DON'T OXIDIZE YOUR IPA! Purge everything with co2 multiple times. Drop in a dry hop? Purge the head space. Pull a same? Purge the head space. Dry hopping in a keg can really help you keep oxidation to a minimum if you don't have a purge-able conical handy.

When in doubt look at the famous IPAs and mimic what they are doing. If you really want to take it to the next level then build a hop cannon. I would be very jealous. I think I am going to build a co2 purge-able dry hopping apparatus for my fermenter/brite tanks.

 

[maierhof]

My advice is that you should find a process and stick with it. For more hop flavor, add more hops.

I dry hop ten days at fermentation temperature with whole hops, 7 days with pellets. I try to rouse the settled hops at the bottom once or twice during the dry hoping too, as this prevents the oils from getting stuck in the crud and not in the beer. I like to add my hops right when the airlock is bubbling around once per minute. This means that enough CO2 is made to pushout any oxygen that gets into the fermenter. Others point to scrubbing from that CO2, which reduces hop flavors, as a reason to add the dry hops after primary is done. I've never seen a careful study of these tradeoffs. I don't use a secondary fermenter when dry hopping.

Interesting - 10 days at fermentation temp. Thank you for that.
Yes - I have heard that yeast can "scrub" the flavor from the beer a bit when doing that in a primary. I agree with you a study would be nice to see - I am sure there has got to be one out there for the pros. Anyone?

I don't use a glass/plastic carboy anymore - I use my sanke as it just eliminates the O2 element almost completely.

 

[maierhof]

According to the hops book most of the aroma you will get from the dry hops is in the beer in the first 24 hours. Firestone walker and RR dry hop very differently and both make award winning IPAs. The common thing between the two breweries is that they dry hop multiple times with smaller additions.

My experience has shown me that BIG DIPAs need about 1.5#/bbl dry hop and small session-type IPAs need .75#/bbl. My "normal" IPA gets some where in between. On the smaller dry hop additions I use one dry hop session and the bigger ones get 2 dry hop sessions. I cold crash and, using my conical, dump the junk off before warming it back up to dry hop again.

It seems I have another book to buy then!
Smaller additions + and more of them = got it! ty
You seem to use the higher temp too.

The temperature at which you dry hop only has 2 things that matter. 1) Can you consistently hold that temperature so that you can make the exact same beer again? 2) Is it warm enough to extract the aroma in a timely fashion.

Dry hopping at lower temperatures takes longer. But don't take that to an extreme and crank it up to 80 to dry hop. I usually hold around 68. It works well for MY equipment.

I have never done this before - so I have split the batch into 2 cornies and will do a test just for the hell of it. One will be at 35*F in my beer freezer section where I serve from. One will be at 68*F in my separate fermenter as soon as I get around to cleaning out the remaining yeast and harvesting it that is, thereby giving me more room to put a corny keg in there and hold that temp. This should give me a taste for what is what - I will watch the flavor and aroma differences - if there are any.

Another thing that trips up big beers is oxidation. DON'T OXIDIZE YOUR IPA! Purge everything with co2 multiple times. Drop in a dry hop? Purge the head space. Pull a same? Purge the head space. Dry hopping in a keg can really help you keep oxidation to a minimum if you don't have a purge-able conical handy.

Used a keg - I have three cornies and a number of sankes that I can use - I chose to do the corny kegs this time and went so far as to buy the SureScreens for them - I hope they work! Put in the whole leaf hops - then I purged 4 times by pushing in the CO2 on the out line and released from the top purge valve instead of IN side of the corny - hopefully releasing more if not all of the O2 in the hops. Did this over the course of an hour.

When in doubt look at the famous IPAs and mimic what they are doing. If you really want to take it to the next level then build a hop cannon. I would be very jealous. I think I am going to build a co2 purge-able dry hopping apparatus for my fermenter/brite tanks.

Did you mean a "hop torpedo"? =;>
I did think about and consider using one of those (blichman and brewhardwares filter is what I considered) but the system I run does not have access to lower placed valve to use a pump out of the bottom yet. I use my sanke keg and a chest freezer for fermentation. It would just be too hard to do this easily... When I upgrade to conicals I will be all over that then. Jealous of your conical situation for sure!

Thank you for the notes!! Much appreciated!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

A la hop cannon! https://www.facebook.com/175258044381/videos/211417065551101/

Different than the torpedo. It uses co2 to purge all the hops and then jettisons them into the fermenter in a big burst of co2.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

In regards to the temp, it was interesting to see what other pro brewers are doing. Originally Vinnie would dry hop cold because that was all he could do with his equipment limitations. He slowly raised the temperature and got much better results.

Of all the books in the series the "hops book" is the easiest read. I haven't bought Malt yet but it is on the short list. The hops book reads like a novel. Except I go through it with a highlighter. It has changed the way I brew tremendously. I love hoppy beer. I have been a victim of "the shift" for many years now. The worst part is that I can only find one IPA in my town that is worth drinking and my hop budget exceeds my grain budget right now. To put that in perspective... I buy a 1/4 pallet at a time. HAHA! I've used about 7# of hops so far this year. Good thing I buy them all by the pound!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Annnnnd Another link: https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques


I have to say that dry hopping is taken for granted. Brewing an IPA? Dry hop it! But most people don't know a lot of the science behind dry hopping. I know a little. But there is a ton to learn.

There is a small part of my that wishes I liked malty beers...

 

[maierhof]

That looks like a pro 5 barrel fermenter that he is using in that first link video.

Does CO2 help with the hop lupulin uptake?

 

[maierhof]

Annnnnd Another link: https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

I have to say that dry hopping is taken for granted. Brewing an IPA? Dry hop it! But most people don't know a lot of the science behind dry hopping. I know a little. But there is a ton to learn.

TY for that link - that will be good to read.

There is a small part of my that wishes I liked malty beers...

Lol - that is exactly what I liked for so long, and still kinda do. Grew up in a German house - Dinkel Akers, Spaten, etc...

Wow - is what I said when I saw the recipe for the Pliny the Elder beer. Holy shmokes that is a big wallet buster for hops on that one!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

That looks like a pro 5 barrel fermenter that he is using in that first link video.

Does CO2 help with the hop lupulin uptake?

Nope. It just insures a oxygen proof Transfer.

 

[maierhof]

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

Great article - thank you for sharing that one!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

You bet! I am a great hop evangelist! I love everything about hops!

 

[maierhof]

Great - so answer a question for me then?

What I have done is taken the first corny, used a surescreen on the out diptube and then put in 1oz of Cascade for 4.5 gallons and it is being held tight to temp at 35*F.
The second is 1oz of Centennial for 4.5 gallons being held at a range of 39.75* to 41.5*F temp as I have a side by side fridge.

I am going to do this for 2.5 weeks each.

Does this make sense to you? I figure that it will take longer to get all the oils out at this lower temp. The next test I should do one at a lower temp then one at 35*F

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Those temperatures are pretty low. I doubt you will get the effect that you are looking for. Perhaps you would be better suited to try one of your kegs at a warmer temperature.

Another thing to note is that different hop varieties will have different dry hopping characteristics. Hops high in total oils and high in myrcene will be more noticeable when you dry hop.

 

[maierhof]

Ok - the test results are in (finally)!!

Here was my recipe:
20 lb American - Pale 2-Row 87.4%
25 oz American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) 6.8%
11 oz German - Acidulated Malt 3%
10 oz American - Caramel / Crystal 40L 2.7%
1 oz Cascade in the Mash
1 oz German Magnum at 60min
.625 oz Centennial at flameout

So I took the 10 gallons of basic APA (5.3%abv & 32 IBU) I brewed on my rig and split them into two batches in a 5g corny keg each. I finally put the beer directly into the dry hopping keg after 21 days in the primary, then I eliminated as much yeast in the transfer as possible using my new tool (see my Sanke Fermentation: Yeast Harvester build for more details) after a 3 day crash. I used the SureScreens in each keg, put the hops directly in the keg with no bag, then purged it of O2, and racked the beer into it.

The Centennial one sat at 34*F for five days, then I moved it to ~64*F for eight days. It took a day and a half to reach that higher temp. Great aroma but it is cloudy and not NEARLY as clear as the Cascade and has a small bite to it - IMHO.

The Cascade one sat at 34*F the entire time - and still sits on the hops now with no grassy aroma or taste. The aroma is incredible!

Now it just may be the difference in the hops I used: 1oz Cascade vs 1oz of Centennial but to me the cold version of Cascade is just spot on. To me the cold dry hopping is a lot smoother - in fact I have left the hops in that keg and have started to really enjoy it!

Next up on this test is a Cascade test head to head to see what the temp conditions do to it directly... More on this another day.

Not sure why I have never done this before - perhaps I just was scared of oxidation - but I intend to dry hop more from now on!!