My chiller is obsolete...

[movet22]

So I have recently upgraded to 100% electric brewing in my basement and with this upgrade came a brand new 15 gal BK.

I do 5 gallon batches and I am thrilled that I do not risk boil over anymore, but am having to cope with a few minor/moderate obstacles. The first of these is that my boil off over 60 min last night was 2.25 gallons, which seems ridiculous but I guess it makes sense with the surface area. I assume my only fix there would be to start with a larger grain bill and collect more pre-boil wort. Fine. Solved.

My second problem is my homemade 25' IC. The shallowness of the wort (4 gal in a 15 gal pot) coupled with the 5500w element, 4'' RTD and dip tube leaves me with little-to-no chiller coverage even when I swirl the chiller around a bit.

I thought about getting some hose and the parts needed to turn my IC into a CFC, but I have no pumps, and after dropping almost $2k on the complete upgrade, I honestly can't justify dropping another $150 on a pump.

I come to the sages of the forum looking for advice, tips, tricks, info, anything.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Regarding your boil off, you just need more water to compensate. Grain bill should be the same regardless of boil off rate.

 

[Yooper]

To collect more wort, you won't need a larger grainbill. Just sparge a bit more. I start with a bit over 7 gallons for a 5 gallon batch in my indoor system. For a 10 gallon batch, I start with a bit over 12 gallons.

I had the same issue with the chiller, and ended up going with a CFC. But I did have a pump (now I have two) and it was an easy fix. I don't know about gravity draining to a CFC, but I know some do it.

 

[AnOldUR]

To collect more wort, you won't need a larger grainbill.

Yeah, if anything it will be a smaller grain bill. The added sparge liquor lost to boil off will mean better efficiency.

 

[Chriso]

Gravity feed through a CFC is a pretty big pain in the butt. That's what I did up until very recently, when I finally got a pump.

I was very leery each time I had to lift 5.5 gallons of boiling hot wort onto a rickety plastic shelving unit, which I had to use to get the kettle high enough to get a good gravity feed from it.

Now, no more heavy/hot lifting, just connect hoses, open valves, and hit the power button on the surge protector. Vroom vroom.

 

[movet22]

Thanks for the heads up on the boil off rate guys. I had some serious sparge issues last night (got a bit overzealous with the fly) but was able to save the day and still get 6.25 pre boil out. looking back, I could have easily gotten 7, maybe a tiny bit more. I over shot my gravity by a few points, so I could have lived with some more wort.

I get nervous about the gravity counter flow thing. I feel like that would be a bear to get any sort of trub out of.

 

[Chriso]

Generally you will want to stir long enough to create a whirlpool, and then try to siphon off only the wort, leaving your trub behind in the kettle - or else, you're exactly right, it can be a bit prone to clogging - Mine is a 3/8" diameter, 25'-30'?? CFC, and it has clogged many more times than I would like to admit. ESPECIALLY if you use whole hop cones, not pellets.

In fact, unless you explicitly have a strainer set to prevent hop leaf from getting into your CFC, I would strongly advise against using whole hops with your chiller, EVER. That has been the source of most of my clogging misery. Those suckers dry on to the side of the tubing and are hard as hell to get to release.

 

[movet22]

Generally you will want to stir long enough to create a whirlpool, and then try to siphon off only the wort, leaving your trub behind in the kettle - or else, you're exactly right, it can be a bit prone to clogging - Mine is a 3/8" diameter, 25'-30'?? CFC, and it has clogged many more times than I would like to admit. ESPECIALLY if you use whole hop cones, not pellets.

In fact, unless you explicitly have a strainer set to prevent hop leaf from getting into your CFC, I would strongly advise against using whole hops with your chiller, EVER. That has been the source of most of my clogging misery. Those suckers dry on to the side of the tubing and are hard as hell to get to release.

A harrowing tale that is pushing me further from the idea of a gravity CFC. Is there no other way to efficiently chill?? Have we this little to show for ourselves after centuries of innovative brewing?!

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

I thought about getting some hose and the parts needed to turn my IC into a CFC, but I have no pumps, and after dropping almost $2k on the complete upgrade, I honestly can't justify dropping another $150 on a pump.

You spent 2k on a complete upgrade and didnt get a pump?
Then you wont buy one for 150 because you already dropped 2k...?

Seems like your creating most of your problems.
I would get a plate chiller and use a march or chugger pump.

Its something im looking into using on a 10gal BK with 10gal rubbermaid MT, having a 15gal bk and the possibility of moving up to 10gal batchs a pump would be first on my list of upgrades.

 

[Chriso]

I too am thinking I might go towards a plate chiller. However, I have an idea for an IC that I really want to try out sometime. My apologies for the HORRIBLE MS Paint drawing. I suck at art.

Basically, I want a wide IC that hugs the edges of the kettle - it would have some sort of "bottom ring" that stands it up, but most of the coils would be at least 2" or 3" off of the bottom of the kettle. Then, I'm envisioning a lot of small loops of copper coiled up around the perimeter of the pot - BUT - with enough room in the center to allow a little bit of stirring / whirlpooling.

The bottom "ring" stand could have a notch bent in it, that when aligned correctly, allows the chiller to straddle above the electric element.

Thoughts?

Anyways. As I said. I keep staring at plate chillers and thinkin, "dayaaaamn, you sexy. I want you in my brew house." So take that w/ a grain of salt or two.


Edit to add -- New innovations? Well, if you want to think of it this way - really, we've come full circle - after all, No-Chill brewing is all the rage today!! It's not great if you wanted to make a late-hopped fresh-hopped hopbacked whirlpooled quintuple-hopped IPA - but if you're brewing less hoppy styles, it could answer your quandary.

Just don't siphon your hot wort directly into a glass carboy. Read up on better options first. Like the plastic survival carboy 'thingies' that are food grade and will hold under vacuum.

 

[Homercidal]

The only thing bad about gravity feeding a CFC is having to get the BK up high enough. With some cheap and easy precautions it flows well enough.

That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a pump and PC either...

 

[movet22]

You spent 2k on a complete upgrade and didnt get a pump?
Then you wont buy one for 150 because you already dropped 2k...?

Seems like your creating most of your problems.
I would get a plate chiller and use a march or chugger pump.

Its something im looking into using on a 10gal BK with 10gal rubbermaid MT, having a 15gal bk and the possibility of moving up to 10gal batchs a pump would be first on my list of upgrades.

The money spent was over the course of 2 ish years and included the bigger kettles, a bunch of new hardware, all of the electric components, including the costly control panel, a breaker upgrade to run it, ect. The point is that I made many purchases that were not huge over the span of a lot of time. 150+ for a pump and fittings would be maybe the second single most expensive buy at any given time, thus my reasoning to stick with gravity as long as possible.

 

[broadbill]

The money spent was over the course of 2 ish years and included the bigger kettles, a bunch of new hardware, all of the electric components, including the costly control panel, a breaker upgrade to run it, ect. The point is that I made many purchases that were not huge over the span of a lot of time. 150+ for a pump and fittings would be maybe the second single most expensive buy at any given time, thus my reasoning to stick with gravity as long as possible.

I'm trying to find some sympathy here for your situation but coming up lacking. You went with the 15 gallon set up, that pretty much requires a pump. Sorry.

 

[Chriso]

For some reason, I really seem to like to draw pictures for you. I don't know why. I rarely draw pictures. Whatever, anyways. Here is a depiction (MS Paint again!) of my gravity setup when I do my chilling outside w/o my pump. I included a few measurements to help get a sense of scale.

I would point out that, when I tried to cheat any of these height differentials, I had drastically more issues pop up in the middle of chilling, including stuck siphon not-due-to-hop-leaf, etc.

As to the price issue & sticker shock of a pump - I recommend that you watch the HBT classifieds forum. Often you will find a brewer switch brands and replace his old pump so that they all match. I've seen used March pumps on there for $100 or under. Same for ebay and craigslist, although the amount of diligence (research, etc.) required increases in those cases.

PS. That black thing is a step stool, which I have to use in order to reach the spoon / whirlpool the wort before chilling. I suck at drawing step stools. They are difficult. Shut up.

 

[Monster Mash]

I'm trying to find some sympathy here for your situation but coming up lacking. You went with the 15 gallon set up, that pretty much requires a pump. Sorry.

I have to agree with this.

 

[Oldskooler]

I have to agree with this.

+1 It may hurt but after 2K..you just may have to swallow hard and do it.

 

[movet22]

I am going to get torched for this... but what about those small pumps that have surfaced on here for like ~$20 each that seem to attach right to the end of the valve of the kettle- would the serve the purpose I need? Or am I just going to need to buy a G.D. march/chugger pump?

 

[Chriso]

Opinions vary. I am in the camp with the rest of the "Sure, I would use that for my HLT to create a whirlpool for my heat exchanger, but I'd never use it for my wort" brewers. There are a bunch of people also on the "Sure, why not!" side of the fence.
YMMV.

In fact, if it tells you anything, I have a March 809 now and am considering adding a Chugger center inlet to my system - If I do, I will use the March as my HLT/Strike/Recirc chiller water pump, and the Chugger as my wort-only pump.

Completely different train of thought - your boil off rate - once you reach your boil in your electric kettle, do you continue to run everything at 100% power? Or do you reduce the output only to the point where it barely maintains a rolling boil?
You might be experiencing high boil off rates due to the element not cycling off when it could do so.
It might also just be inherent to the wideness of the kettle you use - is this a "tall" Boilermaker style kettle? or a wide restaurant stock pot type of kettle?
I have a wide 60qt aluminum stock pot, and I get crazy boil off when the wind picks up outside, due to how wide my kettle's body is. (Surface area.)

 

[alien]

I've got a 12V centrifugal pump similar to the $20 cheapies. They are popular with UK brewers.

The Aussies I know do no-chill to save water. A nice side effect is that they can do double size mashes and ferment each container of wort separately or give one away. Never done it myself though so I don't know the pros and cons.

 

[Monster Mash]

IMO those are great for 5 gallon brewers for recirculating the mash but for pushing 10 - 15 gallons through a chiller into a fermenter they are probably under powered. It's hard to say without actually trying one though.

 

[alien]

Here's some numbers.

Ebay cheapie, $19, 3.8 metres head

Chugger, $99, 4.1 metres head

Of course, these numbers may be inaccurate and other features of these pumps may be relevant.

Links:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-High-Qu.../360580678750?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item53f448845e
http://www.chuggerpumps.com/product.php?prodid=196

 

[movet22]

@Chriso: On the boil off- I was running the 5500w element at full tilt for the whole biol. my RTD was being screwy, so I went manual 100%. Looking back, that is a great point about setting it right at the boil temp, allowing it to cycle as needed. My pot is a concord 60gal, so it is pretty darn wide.

@alien/@monster mash: This intrigues me quite a bit... It may have trouble with 10-15 gal through a CFC, but what about 4.5-5 gal? That is really where I am going to be volume wise for at least the next couple of years. If I could score a cheap pump to do a couple of quick CFC runs, I would be a very happy camper.

 

[LandoLincoln]

A harrowing tale that is pushing me further from the idea of a gravity CFC. Is there no other way to efficiently chill?? Have we this little to show for ourselves after centuries of innovative brewing?!

There's more than one kind of CFC. There's the plate chillers that clog very easily and then there's the pipe-within-a-pipe CFC which does not.

For about 40 bucks you could build yourself a nice pipe-within-a-garden-hose CFC and get one of those little "solar pumps" that sell for about $22 and use that as a pump.