Multi use RIMS Set up

[Flaviking]

Hey Everyone,

I would like to pick your brains if I may about a set up that is in the very early planning stages.

Some back story here. I am lucky enough to have a friend who opened his own 30 BBL brewery. After doing so, He donated his old 20 gallon 30 Amp electrical brewery to my home brew club.

I previously built my own 30 AMP RIMS control panel using a modified set up from the one found on http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/ which i can't use in my current home. (actually up for sale if anyone is interested)

So here is the issue.

Because I moved from a home I owned to a home I now rent, I lost my GFCI breaker and my dedicated 4 prong 240V outlet, and now only have access to a 3 prong 240v dryer outlet.

So I figured, in the meantime, and in order to get back to brewing again, I would make lemonade gose out of some lemons and use the system my friend gave me to make a flexible system for my brew club that can be used in a variety of places (read different electrical setups)

Now, The problem(s):

1. My friends system uses a DIN Rail system. From everything I read so far, that's actually pretty good as it allows for expansion and much greater flexibility. Only issue is I have no idea how to use it. Does anyone have a good resource for schematics using a DIN rail system?

2. The system is 20 gallons, so I am not sure a 120 V RIMS would do the trick for any sort of step mashing, but what are your opinions on that type of voltage holding temps on a 20 gallon mash? I could direct fire the mash tun, which would definitely allow for it to be used at any location.

3. If 120v is a no go, and it should be 240. How flexible can I make this. Would it be possible to have two power inputs, wired separately for a 240v 3 prong and another for a 240v 4 prong outlet? and then depending on the the supply, to just plug in one or the other?

4. If not, would it be possible to use two plugs, to plug into two separate 120v outlets (assuming different breakers) to make a sort of rigged 240v that can be used at any house. (just spit balling here)

trying to keep this as simple as possible. The idea here is to have a direct fire mash tun, temperature control using a RIMS tube, then be able to transfer from Mash tun to boil kettle, and direct fire the boil kettle..

My budget is around $200 to get any extra parts necessary (excluding the RIMS tube, I am going to borrow that from my current system)

The system my friend gave me came with the following items

Auber SYL-4352 Temp controller

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=102

Power & Controls Inc PC302-120 2 Pole 30A Definite Purpose Contactor 120V Coil

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/391075682819?chn=ps&dispItem=1

2 Pole 63a, 110v Coil, DIN Rail Contactor

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections...ucts/220v-2p-63a-110v-coil-din-rail-contactor

SHCET3-25 1P 20A, 25A single pole phase contactor (looks like an old ebrewsupply part)

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SHCET3-25-1P-20A-25A-single_60586101267.html

Eaton WMZT2C25 Type Wmzt,10ka,2 Pole,25a,c Curve,

https://www.rexelusa.com/usr/Brand/Eaton/Eaton-WMZT2C25-Type-Wmzt,10ka,2-Pole,25a,c-Curve,/p/664289

AC 230V 400V 16A 1 Pole MCB Miniature Circuit Breaker DZ47-63 C16 (looks like another older ebrewsupply part)

https://www.walmart.com/ip/AC-230V-...8760&wl11=online&wl12=162804396&wl13=&veh=sem

and about 20 DIN Rail Terminal Blocks

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections/din-rail-hardware/products/din-rail-terminal-block

plus two din bars, all the switches and LED lights a guy could ask for.

Long post, I know. But would like to try and do something that the whole club could get enjoyment out of, as I will be donating it back to the club once I am in my new place. Any thoughts or links to more info would be very helpful

Thanks.

 

[helibrewer]

DIN Rail is nice, it's just a convenient way to organize things, the schematic would be no different just because it's DIN rail.

He has a 16A circuit breaker in there so you should be able to use a single 120V, 1650W element in your RIM's....it will hold 20 gals at temp, you would need to use the direct fire for steps.

If you can connect the controller to a 20A service, upgrade the circuit breaker to a 20A, you could use a 120V 2000W element....you still would probably not be able to step mash with just the element.

The DIN terminal blocks are nice, they can be jumpered together in groups to make nice bus arrangements for AC, DC, sensor connections etc.

 

[Flaviking]

DIN Rail is nice, it's just a convenient way to organize things, the schematic would be no different just because it's DIN rail.

Thanks. I guess I meant to say i am not familiar with the terminology.

For instance, in my system I use a mechanical relay to turn the system on and turn on each of the three elements.

What is the equivalent of a mechanical relay here? this contactor?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/3910756...=ps&dispItem=1

And what is the difference between that one and this one?

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections/...rail-contactor

 

[Flaviking]

Also.. wondering if a schematic like this (credit to P-J). Would allow for a two element RIMS tube..

1 could be used for holding temp, and a second could be turned on for raising temps if steps are required.

Then both elements could be moved to the boil kettle and turned on for a electric boil.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

FWIW, I use a 120V RIMS tube when I mash for a 15 gal batch, and never had a problem .

 

[augiedoggy]

Voltage doesn't matter.. The wattage does.. you could easily mainatin temps with something as little as 500w really although something 1500w or larger would be more flexible and forgiving.
If you have a 3 prong dryer outlet you can just use that and don't run any 120v devices off the control panel.

I step mash my 11 gallon brews at about 2.5 degrees rise a minute with an 1800w 36" long cartridge heater.. the reason mine works so well is the length and long contact time when pumping at 1.8 gallons per minute. Most people pump way faster through a much shorter rims which equals a much less efficient and consistent thermal transfer.

 

[Flaviking]

Voltage doesn't matter.. The wattage does.. you could easily mainatin temps with something as little as 500w really although something 1500w or larger would be more flexible and forgiving.
If you have a 3 prong dryer outlet you can just use that and don't run any 120v devices off the control panel.

I step mash my 11 gallon brews at about 2.5 degrees rise a minute with an 1800w 36" long cartridge heater.. the reason mine works so well is the length and long contact time when pumping at 1.8 gallons per minute. Most people pump way faster through a much shorter rims which equals a much less efficient and consistent thermal transfer.

That would work for me, but it wouldn't be universal. I think everyone has a 12v.. and updating your one pole 120v breaker to 30 Amps or so, is significantly easier and cheaper than putting in a dedicated line. It would also be waaaay easier to take it places for brewing demonstrations and such.

 

[augiedoggy]

That would work for me, but it wouldn't be universal. I think everyone has a 12v.. and updating your one pole 120v breaker to 30 Amps or so, is significantly easier and cheaper than putting in a dedicated line. It would also be waaaay easier to take it places for brewing demonstrations and such.

I'm confused by what your saying here... I'm suggesting using the 240v dryer outlet you have for the control panel and just powering the only 120v devices you would have which would be pumps off a regular outlet in the room... .I don't think any home has a 30a 120v outlet... And installing one would require running the same 10 awg that could be used for 240v... It's not any easier to wire or as common as a 30a electric dryer or 50a 240v electric stove outlet in a house. My 1800w 240vrims element only draws 7-8 amps.... Half what a 120v system would require. This allows me to run a 4500w hlt at the same time as my rims all off a 30a 240v circuit while powering multiple 24v DC pumps and my control panel... I also use it for my 5500w bk just not at the same time as myg rims or hlt. So there are advantages to going that route as well besides speed and not having to unplug everything from multiple 120v circuits to use them for dedicated lines for brewing.

If your trying to build something you can on traveling with and brewing at other people's houses then yeah 120v would be a better fit in the same way push mower would have the same advantages over a riding mower... But which would you rather have if you plan on doing a lot of grass cutting?

I always strongly recommend the auber ez boil over any pid for this.. I went from one to the other and the ezboil is just hands down better in many ways.

 

[schematix]

The DIN terminal blocks are nice, they can be jumpered together in groups to make nice bus arrangements for AC, DC, sensor connections etc.

+1 to DIN rails. They are the foundation for a cleanly organized panel. Wire duct is also nice, but it does take up a decent amount of space. Most of the panels I've seen people post pictures of around here that direct mount components to the back panel end up with a birds nest of wiring. If organization is your thing, you want to go with DIN rail. Google it... it's an old German industrial standard.

One thing to be cautious about using terminal blocks with sensors is that certain types of temperatures sensors don't like them.
-Thermocouple sensors don't like them because it introduces another bi-metal junction, which adds a non-linear offset to the voltage. If you must do terminals for a thermocouple, you must get thermocouple terminal blocks with matching metals to your sensor.
-RTD style (e.g. PT100) sensors can use standard terminal blocks, but you should use the 3-wire (not 2-wire) types, and all 3 wires should go through the same type of terminal block. The 3-wire design forms a feedback loop that compensates for the added resistance. As long as all connections have the same connection it'll be cancelled out. It's usually easier to just do a socket/plug on the outside of the panel and direct wire inside the panel.

 

[doug293cz]

... the reason mine works so well is the length and long contact time when pumping at 1.8 gallons per minute. Most people pump way faster through a much shorter rims which equals a much less efficient and consistent thermal transfer.

Your electrical knowledge is first rate, but you could use a refresher course in thermodynamics and heat transfer.

Flow rate thru a RIMS tube matters little as far as amount of heat delivered back to the MLT is concerned. If the element is putting out X watts of power, all that heat goes into the wort surrounding the heating element, regardless of flow rate. If it didn't, the temperature of the element would increase without bound. Some of the heat will get lost out the wall of the RIMS tube and return plumbing, but the amount of loss won't vary greatly with flow rate. The loss will vary with the actual temp of the wort in the tube, with losses being higher for higher wort temps. The faster the wort goes thru the tube the lower the temp rise in the wort, so the less heat is lost to the environment due to the delta T factor. But the faster flow rate will increase the heat transfer rate to the walls, and thus the heat transfer thru the walls to the environment a little. I expect these two effects would mostly cancel each other out for most homebrew type systems.

The most important thing in a RIMS tube is making sure that the wort temp never gets above about 160°F during the mash recirculation to avoid denaturing your enzymes too soon. Going a little higher during mash steps might be ok for short duration. Definitely want to keep the surface temp of the heating elements below a temp that will scorch the wort.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

Your electrical knowledge is first rate, but you could use a refresher course in thermodynamics and heat transfer.

Flow rate thru a RIMS tube matters little as far as amount of heat delivered back to the MLT is concerned. If the element is putting out X watts of power, all that heat goes into the wort surrounding the heating element, regardless of flow rate. If it didn't, the temperature of the element would increase without bound. Some of the heat will get lost out the wall of the RIMS tube and return plumbing, but the amount of loss won't vary greatly with flow rate. The loss will vary with the actual temp of the wort in the tube, with losses being higher for higher wort temps. The faster the wort goes thru the tube the lower the temp rise in the wort, so the less heat is lost to the environment due to the delta T factor. But the faster flow rate will increase the heat transfer rate to the walls, and thus the heat transfer thru the walls to the environment a little. I expect these two effects would mostly cancel each other out for most homebrew type systems.

The most important thing in a RIMS tube is making sure that the wort temp never gets above about 160°F during the mash recirculation to avoid denaturing your enzymes too soon. Going a little higher during mash steps might be ok for short duration. Definitely want to keep the surface temp of the heating elements below a temp that will scorch the wort.

Brew on

I could have explained it better. My lack of any thermodynamics, electrical or any college courses is likely to blame for not being very good at relaying what im trying to say here.

I experimented with 5 different rims configurations and found regardless of wattage the longer the rims tube, the more effectively it works in consistently raising temps and in holding them with less on time. So I must not have hit that delta you speak of yet. The element I used in my 24" long rims was a higher wattage element than the one I use now yet my 36" long element raises the wort temp faster and holds it just as well as the shorter rims which to me seemed to fall in line with the fact that the wort coming out was much closer to the temp I set it for in one pass than any of my other rims attempts.
Because the rims is so long and my flow is so low the ULWD heating element does not need to get much hotter than the setpoint to accomplish the setpoint which to your point makes it less likely to denature any enzymes unlike what I believe easily happens with a higher watt density element in a short rims with wort blasting through so quickly that its not even consistently the same temp as its exiting. when im maintaining a temp of 151 degrees the element usually stays on between 15-20% power max in the pid settings which is 20% of each second its actually turned on.. The 1800w element is no where near full temp here and barely breaking a sweat.. when step mashing its on consistently but since the watt density is so low I do believe theres no real risk of enyzme denaturing.

In short I believe my rims is performing more llike a herms by heating gently in one pass but with greater accuracy and the stepping speed of a rims. I'm sure I may be losing more heat to the environment as you say but from what Ive found so far this is still a much more effective way to accomplish my goals with fast effective even heat without applying too much heat in one concentrated area. with a standard 5500w rims a person can get localized boiling by reducing the flow rate which coincidently happens from time to time due to stuck sparges being more common when trying to pump from the MT too quickly. I dont have to worry about that, I dont even get any buildup at all on my element due to the heating action being so gently applied/ transferred even as low as 1 gpm.

I learned in the process of restoring my stingray that more flow can sometimes hurt the effectivness of a thermal heat exchanger, according to some threads in a hot rodder forum and to Skip white, a lot of folks were pulling the thermostates (which were also a flow restriction) and buying high flow water pumps that were actually pumping so fast that the mismatched radiators were doing a less effective at bringing the temps down and maintaining them they were also hurting the engine by having inconsistent fluctuating engine temps which I believe kind of relates here..

 

[schematix]

The fastest heating is going to be achieved when your element is the highest possible power, and you are flowing as fast as possible so that you don't overshoot your set temp and you aren't compacting your grain bed. For me i hit the flow rate limit on my grain bed before my element has a chance to go 100%.

The RIMS geometry will matter though. You need contact time with the element to apply the heat. A really short element won't give you enough contact time for a reasonable flow rate. The long / low density elements give you the contact time you need so that you can crank the pump flow up. A short/high density element is also going to result in localized heating around the element as well, which could result in denaturing enzymes and/or burning/scorching/caramelization.

Remember you have to turn over the entire mash volume at least once to make a step temperature change.

 

[augiedoggy]

The fastest heating is going to be achieved when your element is the highest possible power, and you are flowing as fast as possible so that you don't overshoot your set temp and you aren't compacting your grain bed. For me i hit the flow rate limit on my grain bed before my element has a chance to go 100%.

The RIMS geometry will matter though. You need contact time with the element to apply the heat. A really short element won't give you enough contact time for a reasonable flow rate. The long / low density elements give you the contact time you need so that you can crank the pump flow up. A short/high density element is also going to result in localized heating around the element as well, which could result in denaturing enzymes and/or burning/scorching/caramelization.

Remember you have to turn over the entire mash volume at least once to make a step temperature change.

I respectfully disagree with your first statement ... faster flow increases the chances of compacting the grainbed.. Ive seen people create enough hydraulic pressure to crush their false bottoms this way.

The way I see it, lower flow with lower watt density just increases the safety net on all accounts and the longer element makes up for the lack of heat density on the shorter element surface here in accomplishing the same outcome...
I can handle it taking 5-6 minutes to get an even consistent change in the total mash temp.

I average 86% efficiency this way so I can say confidently this method does work well. and as you know I use tiny dc pumps so I cant have stuck sparges or simply increase my flow although I did do so in testing by doubling the pumps up with no benefit found.

we are getting off the op's topic here...
Sorry Flaviking.

 

[schematix]

I respectfully disagree with your first statement ... faster flow increases the chances of compacting the grainbed.. Ive seen people create enough hydraulic pressure to crush their false bottoms this way.

Right.... which is what i said. You hit the grain bed flow limit before your pump limit, usually.

You want to flow as fast as possible to limit localized overheating at the element/wort interface and also get the heated liquid to the temp sensor sooner so the controller can react quicker. Also since you have to turn the entire volume over to heat it you want to flow faster.

This isn't really a discussion about mash efficiency though. It's not hard at all to get 100% mash efficiency with RIMS, and your only efficiency hit is in dead space and grain absorption.

 

[augiedoggy]

Right.... which is what i said. You hit the grain bed flow limit before your pump limit, usually.

You want to flow as fast as possible to limit localized overheating at the element/wort interface and also get the heated liquid to the temp sensor sooner so the controller can react quicker. Also since you have to turn the entire volume over to heat it you want to flow faster.

This isn't really a discussion about mash efficiency though. It's not hard at all to get 100% mash efficiency with RIMS, and your only efficiency hit is in dead space and grain absorption.

My apologies, Your original statement "and you are flowing as fast as possible so that you don't overshoot your set temp and you aren't compacting your grain bed" sounded like you were saying the opposite but I see how you meant it now.
I dont have the issue of localized heating with my configuration and I dont hit the grain bed flow limit... Thats my point... and with slower flow the potential for channeling IS minimized as well as the fact that the temp stratification as the newer temp wort comes in is more uniform since the wort below is draining more evenly at the lower flow...


Right,
I should have said i have no issues with conversion and hitting my final gravities due to denatured enzymes or unfermentable sugars... I do believe flow speed makes some possible difference here as channeling and potential for possible doughballs not to break down is greater with higher flow. Also in the same way a coffee maker would make some pretty weak coffee flowing at higher speeds I think the possible potential for more sugar extraction is there with more consistent even flow at lower speeds. obviously im comparing those who recirc at around 3+ gallons per minute on 5 or 10 gallon setups to those below that and im sure the size of the false bottom is a huge factor as well as other things like the ability to dial in a consistent flow between 10 gallon and 5 gallon mashes and having the pids values optimized to work the same with either since the flow rate isnt fluctuating as much depending on grain consistency...

One way to test this would be by introducing dye to the mash recirculating I guess... This could show inconsistent flow and temps from channeling. especially on those systems using the baskets that leave the space all along the sides for the wort to bypass the more resistant grain bed. This kind of reminds me of the undergravel filter system issues from my old fresh water aquarium days.

Im sure the 3 gallons of space under my false bottom and the fact that I do more of a quick fly "rinse" Than sparge are effecting my efficiencies but I can live with what I have...

Im just pointing out the sum of my experimenting and the conclusions I have drawn from that. I'm sure i still have much to learn..

 

[BrunDog]

-Thermister style (e.g. PT100) sensors can use standard terminal blocks, but you should use the 3-wire (not 2-wire) types, and all 3 wires should go through the same type of terminal block. The 3-wire design forms a feedback loop that compensates for the added resistance. As long as all connections have the same connection it'll be cancelled out. It's usually easier to just do a socket/plug on the outside of the panel and direct wire inside the panel.

Sorry to perpetuate the off-topic-ness, but...

Pt100 temperature probes are RTD (Resistive Temperature Detectors are technically not interchangeable with thermistors, though thermistors are RTD's. Manufacturers will generally not call a thermistor an RTD. And these are different in our applications. Most thermistors have a nominal resistance of 10k or 100k ohms (high impedance) and a large change in resistance with temperature variation. Pt100 probes have a nominal resistance of 100 ohms and a small change in resistance with temperature variation.

Because Pt100's have this low impedance/low variation characteristic, any changes from the wires and/or terminals will change the accuracy reading. However, using a 3 wire RTD which is not directly tied to the amplifier terminal may introduce error. The 3rd wire serves as a comparator to differentiate the resistance of the wire vs. the wire and the sensor. In 3 wire designs, the amplifier doubles the third wire's resistance (4 wires are measured directly). This resistance is then subtracted from the sensor wire resistance to isolate just the sensor. That said, any resistance added *after* the wires will impact the reading accuracy. There is no canceling out. So adding terminals where the resistance is not identical for each wire will introduce errors.

 

[BrunDog]

While soap-boxing (sorry... waiting on a flight)... augiedoggy is right about the flow comments above. One of the problems with high density elements is local temperature increases. If you try to dump lots of heat into a small area, you get dramatic temp increases locally - perhaps boiling. In our applications, this is bad because steam creation can be dangerous and enzymes will be locally destroyed. Increasing the flow increases turbulence around the RIMs tube and helps reduce local heating. But that may cause a problem with bed compaction, stuck mashesC and damaged FB's - as discussed above.

The ideal RIMs design is ultra ultra ultra low watt density, which will raise the temp of the fluid gradually and broadly without local temperature increases. His design is really good as there is a massive area for heat exchange. The idea is you can flow nice and slow but still add as much heat as you want.

 

[schematix]

Sorry to perpetuate the off-topic-ness, but...

Pt100 temperature probes are RTD (Resistive Temperature Detectors are technically not interchangeable with thermistors, though thermistors are RTD's.

Good catch, that's what i meant to say!

 

[Flaviking]

I guess the question that I am really asking is:

Is it possible to power a 240v 55000w element from two separate 120v 20 AMP breakers.

 

[atoughram]

I guess the question that I am really asking is:

Is it possible to power a 240v 55000w element from two separate 120v 20 AMP breakers.

No.

There are ways... but it's sketchy and not portable.

 

[doug293cz]

I guess the question that I am really asking is:

Is it possible to power a 240v 55000w element from two separate 120v 20 AMP breakers.

Well, the element draws 23A at full power, so 20A breakers are not enough. If either of the two circuits was GFCI protected, the GFCI would trip as soon as you turned on the element, since the hot and neutral currents wouldn't be the same (neutral would be close to zero.) If you don't have GFCI protection, you have an unacceptable risk of electrocution.

Brew on