Milk Vetch Honey?

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FatDragon

FatDragon

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I've only done a couple meads, with limited success so far, but I decided I'm going to give it another try. Since I don't want to waste a bunch of money on nice honey only to screw it up or find that it's adulterated honey (as so much here in China is), so I bought some cheap honey with a purity guarantee that I hope is worth more than the paper it's printed on.

The varietal is "Milk Vetch" honey and I got a three kg tub on clearance for about the equivalent of $12. I plan on doing a couple 4-5 liter batches with D-47, though I have various dry beer yeasts and some champagne yeast if those would do better. I've got some DAP and goferm and fermaid K (no fermaid O here that I could find) are on the way. Anyone have any experience with this type of honey? I haven't opened the tub for a taste yet but I doubt it'll be top shelf stuff at this price, but if anyone knows anything about it that might give me a leg up before I start the ferment.

Also, I've been looking around but I can't find a good source for a Fermaid K + DAP staggered nutrient schedule. It seems TOSNA has taken over because all I can find are Fermaid O schedules. Any help there would be appreciated.
 
I have had pretty good success with the following SNA protocol while using D47 ("High" Nutrients Required) . DAP / Fermaid-K mixture 2 to 1 = 1/2 tsp with the yeast starter and again at yeast pitch then again at 1/3 sugar break. (Divided from 5 gallon volume) Rather aggressively releasing CO2 / adding a bit of air 2X's a day to 1/3 break. And slightly more nutrient than the calculators recommend. (1tsp = 4.5 gr via my 4 place balance.)
 
I thought about BOMMing it, but I don't have potassium carbonate, and I'm not sure how necessary it is so I don't want to mess with half-assing a protocol like that.

From the meadmakr calculator, I'm planning on doing two 4L ferments (because of the convenience of sourcing suitably-sized vessels) and using .95g DAP and .5g Fermaid K in each at 24, 48, and 72 hours, and once more at 1 week or the 1/3 break, after using Go Ferm and the meadmakr rehydration instructions and once or twice daily degassing for the first week. I figure things will probably go best if I stick to the protocol, so I don't plan on doing anything fancy.
 
FatDragon said:
What is it there for? Since I don't know its purpose, I worry that leaving it out would throw off the nutrient balance.
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He says it's to provide potassium ions to the yeast and maybe buffer some against acidity. Being in China, you won't be using Texas spring water, so your water chemistry may be different anyway.
 
Right. I usually use doctored RO water for my beer brewing, but I'm using Nongfu Spring water (which comes from a variety of sources, very few of which are actual springs) for the mead since I like to do small ferments right in the jugs. I'll have to check the label to see if they give ion concentrations, though I probably won't know enough about what they mean to do anything about it anyway.

I'm hoping to have time to get them started tonight after the kids go to bed. 60 hours a week split across three jobs, training for my first half marathon, and dadding a terrible two and a newborn sucks up a lot of time...

I did manage to taste the honey a couple evenings ago, though I didn't take a big taste and I'm not a very strong taster. Mild and inoffensive without any particularly strong standout character is how I would describe it. It doesn't hold a candle to the straight-from-the-farm osmanthus honey I have in my cupboard (I love osmanthus, might add some flowers to one of these batches), but it was 1/6th of the price and osmanthus is out of season so that's just how it goes.
 
FatDragon said:
Right. I usually use doctored RO water for my beer brewing, but I'm using Nongfu Spring water (which comes from a variety of sources, very few of which are actual springs) for the mead since I like to do small ferments right in the jugs. I'll have to check the label to see if they give ion concentrations, though I probably won't know enough about what they mean to do anything about it anyway.

I'm hoping to have time to get them started tonight after the kids go to bed. 60 hours a week split across three jobs, training for my first half marathon, and dadding a terrible two and a newborn sucks up a lot of time...

I did manage to taste the honey a couple evenings ago, though I didn't take a big taste and I'm not a very strong taster. Mild and inoffensive without any particularly strong standout character is how I would describe it. It doesn't hold a candle to the straight-from-the-farm osmanthus honey I have in my cupboard (I love osmanthus, might add some flowers to one of these batches), but it was 1/6th of the price and osmanthus is out of season so that's just how it goes.
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Oh, I do understand you. I'm hoping most of the perceptable flavor/aroma will come from the backsweetening, which won't require as much anyway, so maybe save your osmanthus for that (?). Also, I'm betting that selecting the right yeast will help a lot with the aroma, in which case the impact of your mild and inoffensive honey can be amplified for cheap.
 
I don't plan to backsweeten. My intention is to let it go as dry as it pleases, possibly secondary one or both batches on osmanthus flowers (or with a tincture I made from fresh flowers a few months ago), and rack clear before bottling - I don't want to mess with stabilizing or adding honey until the yeast is overwhelmed. Not sure if I want to bottle still or add a dash of fresh honey for some light carbonation (if the yeast will handle it). Mostly, I don't want to overthink this or make it too much work: the reason I'm doing a mead is because cheap honey + low hands-on time offers the potential for an easy beverage to help keep the pipeline primed while I wait for the rare opportunity for another beer brewday (three 12 gallon batches in the last 12 months, only one since June. Fortunately, I'm a light drinker and don't have the time for a social life so there's not been much opportunity or need to share beer lately). Heck, if it turns out particularly nice, I've got a 5 gallon carboy that could be full of mead for the equivalent of about $35.
 
Maylar said:
So, is this with the infamous Chinese honey that's not really honey?
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I hope not! Haha! The label guarantees it's pure honey, but that doesn't necessarily mean much here. At the price I paid, is certainly reasonable to doubt. If it turns out to be a disaster, at least it won't be a very expensive one.
 
Nice to know that even in China, what goes around has a good chance of coming around.
 
Started them last night. I decided to add about a pound of Kirkland honey bear honey to justify filling the jugs up to their 5l capacity, since I don't want to leave a ton of headspace. Gravity was around 25 Plato. I left a couple inches of space for now to facilitate degassing without excessive spillover. D47 yeast was proofed with goferm and must per instructions and then split between the jugs. Tried degassing this morning but there wasn't really any activity. They're sitting at about 17C right now but I can warm them up if that's too low - I know more about fermentation temps with beer than I do with mead.
 
Last night and this morning's degassing sessions have been much more productive. There's definitely activity in there, which wasn't really the case the last time I tried a mead with honey that turned out to be heavily adulterated. Dosing The burbs a tiny bit at a time also seems to facilitate a lot of the degassing without going full mead volcano mode, so I might do the next couple nutrient additions the same way to save some stirring. In spite of the activity, a sanitized hydrometer floated in one of the jugs after degassing read pretty much the same as it did when I mixed the must. I think this is because the must wasn't fully mixed before pitching, as I noticed a layer of honey on the bottom of the jugs after pitching and gave them another minute or two of vigorous shaking, so my OG might be a lie, though it was mostly in line with expectations based on the weight of the honey and the volume of must.
 
So far, the mead has dropped about 25 SG points in the first five days of fermentation. Is this a normal rate of fermentation for mead? I'm used to beer, which is usually done by now, so I just want to check with those of you who know better.

D47 yeast with goferm, roughly 1.108 OG, 2:1 DAP:Fermaid K SNA at 24, 48, 72, and pending at 1/3 or 7 days, in case anyone wants to answer the question but not dig for the relevant details.
 
What's the temperature? That has a lot to do with it.

However, it does sound slow. Either its chilly, it lacked proper rehydration, your yeast is expired or not as vital as it should be, or, most likely, you probably underpitched it. If the latter, you can pitch more and speed it up that way.
 
Mead is definately not beer, no comparison. IMO Seven days to 1/3 sugar break is not uncommon. As stated by Never Die lots of factors play into the timing. I run primary at 62 deg f similar nutrient schedule and generally takes 21 to 30 days to complete. OG at 1.125 so a litle higher than yours but many folks do push the envelope (BOMM) to get it done faster. Best advice I can give you at this point is it will be done when it gets done. Ride it out, youll be fine. I had one go 90 days, i added acid instead of bicarbonate pH was really off and corrected it but by then the yeast were like yawn, yeah riiiiight.... it turned out well in the end.
 
Cool. The fact that the SNA protocol suggests seven days or 1/3 sugar break for the final nutrient addition made me think my mead's fermenting pretty normally, since it's roughly on pace to reach 1/3 right around the seven day mark. The fact that it's moving at a glacial pace compared to beer made me want to worry a bit about it, but it sounds like everything is as it should be. I'll keep doing my twice daily degassing for a couple more days and add the last nutes at the seven day mark before swapping the sanitized foil for airlocks and forgetting about them for a month or two.

They're fermenting at ambient temp, for what it's worth - 17C when they started, around 19.5C now. I've got heating wire set to kick on if they drop down to 16C, but it hasn't been necessary yet and unless the coming of spring is interrupted with a cold snap, I don't think it will be.
 
Ah. He uses ale yeast mostly, right? I pitched one packet of D-47 between the two, so about 2.5g per batch since wine yeasts come in 5g packets. If I find it stalling, I might repitch with the packet of EC-1118 I've got on hand, but the current rate of fermentation seems to be within expectations, if on the slow end. I don't mind it taking its time, I just don't want it to stall out in the end.
 
If it were me, I'd pitch more D47, as you're still early in the ferment. However, I defer to others with more experience.
 
Let it go as you planned. It'll be fine. My current mead took a full 4 weeks (28 days) to complete. Fermenting at the low end of the yeast's range and letting it take its time makes for good mead.
 
I've been seeing posts from others that say the champagne yeast strips flavor. Most are just using D-47
 
At those temps 17C = 62F your just fine - My Meads are fermented between 62 and 64F right in line with your 17 - 19.5C I have used D47 and at 68F+ (20C) it does throw some fusels, at 58F (14.5) I have had them slow way down. Some folks ferment much cooler with D47 but it takes months.

Half a pack of Yeast is more than enough and a full pack 5gr doesn't hurt. I personally use a full 10 gr for 5 gallons some folks use 5 and others 25.

D47 from 1.108 and the temp range you are in along with the nutrient regimen and with releasing CO2 should go dry with no problems. But can take up to 30 days. (Probably closer to 20.) IMO It will slow considerably nearer the end.

I would save the EC1118 for use only if it stalls near 1.020 and you cant get it re-started.(D47 has been known to do that) But before you use it you can often save it by raising the temp a degree C or so, stir or agitate the yeast cake, rack moving some of the yeast cake with it and add some potassium bicarbonate to raise the pH a bit.
 
Is there any downside, aside from the minor cost of the extra dried yeast, to re-pitching more of the D47? Or is it that there is simply no upside for doing so?
 
No real upside in my opinion. If an active ferment for a few days the yeast you added at pitch likely have budded / reproduced and are well beyond the volume you could effectively add. No real downside BUT... the yeast added from the start have already acclimated to the changing environment. Your re-pitched yeast although are likely viable and probably would not hurt but could be outcompeted by the existing yeast.

IMO - (Others may have a differing POV) The only way to effectively achieve a re-pitch or in essence a change in yeast would be to start the yeast you were gong to pitch in some of the must. Get a healthy and large colony established before re-pitching say in 24 to 48 hours and hope they outcompete the yeast already doing the work. A yeast like EC 1118 is a good choice for just that.

I believe pH, temp, aeration early / CO2 release and nutrients play a larger role in how well (and happy) your yeast are and if you hit these parameters you will have a decent ferment in as little a time as can be achieved without adding additional yeast.

In essence, I start my dry yeast for 24 - 36 hours prior to pitch. They will produce Billions & Billions of healthy yeast and IMO that will jump start your ferment. The other option is pitch a relatively large amount of yeast 25 grams dry and let them go crazy at pitch. Number of yeast per gram are pretty hard to get an accurate number on and no-one seems to be able to truly nail it down as each yeast varies in size and weight. But for all practical purposes conservatively each gram of dry yeast could be estimated at say 1 - 20 Billion. In a healthy sugar rich environment that number goes exponential in a hurry. The majority of your fine lees (Not gross lee's) are yeast and the volume of that compared to what you have pitched is immense in comparison.

A side note - Groennfell meadery recommends 5 packs of D47 at pitch. (they do not start them) and a low ABV mead is produced in 7 - 10 days. I have a Psychopomp clone experiment using two packs of liquid Omega Hothead yeast in 5 gallons in the works at 88 Deg F that went from 1.065 to 1.010 in 40 hours I expect it to be complete tonight (50 hours) when I get home. Will be interesting to see how this turns out. Krausen was 4 - 5" and a very vigorous ferment. I hope i didn't blow all the flavor out the airlock. We shall see....
 
NeverDie said:
If it were me, I'd pitch more D47, as you're still early in the ferment. However, I defer to others with more experience.
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None on hand, and it would take 3-4 days to get a packet delivered. That's not really worth it to me if my current progress is in line with expectations.
CKuhns said:
At those temps 17C = 62F your just fine - My Meads are fermented between 62 and 64F right in line with your 17 - 19.5C I have used D47 and at 68F+ (20C) it does throw some fusels, at 58F (14.5) I have had them slow way down. Some folks ferment much cooler with D47 but it takes months.

Half a pack of Yeast is more than enough and a full pack 5gr doesn't hurt. I personally use a full 10 gr for 5 gallons some folks use 5 and others 25.

D47 from 1.108 and the temp range you are in along with the nutrient regimen and with releasing CO2 should go dry with no problems. But can take up to 30 days. (Probably closer to 20.) IMO It will slow considerably nearer the end.
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I'll have to set up a little swamp cooler with a couple basins of water and a fan connected to my temp controller, then. My ferm chamber is being used as a freezer right now and ambient temps are starting to approach 20C. Glad to know about the potential to throw fusels before it becomes a potential issue.
CKuhns said:
No real upside in my opinion. If an active ferment for a few days the yeast you added at pitch likely have budded / reproduced and are well beyond the volume you could effectively add. No real downside BUT... the yeast added from the start have already acclimated to the changing environment. Your re-pitched yeast although are likely viable and probably would not hurt but could be outcompeted by the existing yeast.

IMO - (Others may have a differing POV) The only way to effectively achieve a re-pitch or in essence a change in yeast would be to start the yeast you were gong to pitch in some of the must. Get a healthy and large colony established before re-pitching say in 24 to 48 hours and hope they outcompete the yeast already doing the work. A yeast like EC 1118 is a good choice for just that.
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My plan if I do have to repitch is to proof the yeast with Goferm and then slowly add must from the fermenters to get the fresh yeast acclimated to the ABV. Is that a viable option? If I go that route, what kind of time frame should I acclimatize the yeast over?
 
I do apologize, I forgot for a bit how anxious I was over my first few Meads.

If you can easily control the temp then I might do so. Your fermentation should be starting to slow a bit and you likely will be more than OK. Don't over think this, even if it does throw some off flavors they will age out. At 20C your in the temp range of the yeast. I had some hit 70F+ and be more than OK. Again, your nutrient protocol and practices will help. A stall is unlikely but can happen. I only have had 1 of 20+ stall, with D47 and did not have to re-pitch. In that case my nutrient regimen and practices were not as good as they could be.

I didn't mean to introduce additional concerns with my post(s) above. (Seriously consider letting it ride as is.)
 
Haha, thanks for the understanding. In my very limited mead experience, I have done one batch with suspect honey that took three different yeast pitches and several months to reach roughly 50% apparent attenuation and never went past that. I rarely worry about anything with my beer brewing even when I totally screw something up and should be worried, because I've got the experience to know it'll come out okay, or at least to know what is likely to go wrong if I screwed it up too badly. With mead, about a quarter of my experience is a batch that totally failed, so that's my baseline expectation so I ask a lot of questions to try to avoid repeating it.
 
CKuhns said:
Read this - Hope it helps.
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Thanks, I love it! It's dense with useful guidance but your voice also makes it an enjoyable read throughout. Have you talked with the admins about making it a front page article? It would probably need some trimming or editing into multiple parts, but it would work well there.

I degassed for the umpteenth time and added the last nutrient dose last night. At seven days it was pretty much right at the 1/3 sugar break. How important is degassing at this point? Should I continue to baby them for a while, or is this a good time to forget about them for the next month or so?
 
Thanks for the kind words. No, have not spoken to an Admin. First time I have posted this.

I would let it do its thing from here on out. Observe it daily check SG every couple days and maybe even taste it once a week. After you get a couple under your belt you will get a "feel" for it.

I dont believe that releasing CO2 / adding a little air does much for you past 1/3 sugar break. Thats when the yeast need the air to promote budding. In-fact could cause more harm than good after that as everytime you open it you take the chance albiet small of introducing something undesirable.
 
16 days in, down from 24-25p to 12p, so about 50% attenuation so far. Weather's been pretty steady so they're holding around 19-20 C, and the airlocks have been bubbling at a steady rate since I put them on. Interestingly, with two identical airlocks over virtually identical must, with identical liquid levels in the airlocks, one airlock makes small bubbles every five seconds or so while the other makes much bigger bubbles once every ten to fifteen seconds. The liquid in the small bubbling airlock basically never retreats past the lower bend where it bubbles, but in the big bubbler, it moves back an extra centimeter or so every time it releases a bubble. It's probably just due to something like a slight difference in the angle of one of the airlocks, how well the jugs are sealed, or the amount of headspace (jug A had a little volcano during one stirring/degassing session and lost about 100 ml), but it fascinates me nevertheless.

In a few days, I'll have my ferm chamber running around 21 C after I let the US-05 in the APA I just pitched do most of its work at a more suitable initial temperature. At that point, I'll probably transfer the jugs of mead in there and set the temp probe on one of them. My theory is that the lower thermal mass of the mead fermenters will be quickly cooled by the freezer whenever it kicks on, while the big beer fermenters will have more freedom to free rise, which is just fine for an APA dry hopping at the tail end of primary fermentation and a Brett saison. Meanwhile letting the mead go to 21C should help the yeast work a bit better without much risk of fusels or off flavors, since the yeast should already be in anaerobic fermentation by now.
 
Sounds like it is going well. Yes, i agree watching a ferment is intriguing. I am learning that some yeast like warmer temps without throwing off flavors. I use US-05 for cider that seems to do pretty well a little warmer. I just racked a Mead (hydromel 5.2 ABV) ftom secondary after adfing 1oz oak chips for 5 days. I used Omega Hothead liquid yeast and fermented at 88F (31C) with no off flavors. Force carbing it in a keg and will be very good for a lighter summer drink. looks like i might have to update my Drunken Ramblings...
 
The chamber is up to my preferred temp, but the jugs are too tall to sit on the shoulder with their airlocks. Should I replace the airlocks with sanitized foil or just leave the jugs out of the chamber?
 
If that^ is still too tight, some of the waterless airlocks require almost no clearance.
 
Brew log time:

I've been too busy (for sure) and lazy (maybe some of that too) to set up blow off tubes and transfer the mead to the fermentation chamber… until tonight, when I finally found my druthers (they were [it was?] in my sock drawer the whole time) and got the mead set up in the chamber as described before: 21C, probe insulated on the side of a mead jug, heating wire in place if the temp drops too low.

Jug A, which has fermented a bit more strongly the whole time and started at a slightly higher gravity (+1 Plato at most) is around 8p from 25p OG. Jug B started around 24p and is down to 10p. It had me worried because it had stopped bubbling entirely lately and seemed like it might have stalled, but it's down 2-3p from my last reading four or five days ago so it's not dead yet. Remember, my last attempt at making a mead with suspect Chinese honey stalled around 50% AA and wouldn't budge regardless of what yeast I threw at it from there, so I have experience to justify my new-breweresque jitters with this batch.

The drips off of the (sanitized, of course!) hydrometer taste good. Sweet, but otherwise good. My mother in law stayed with us for the last few months to help take care of our new daughter and kept telling me she loved the smell of the fermenting mead, even more than the mind blowing aroma of a hoppy pale ale dry hopping with Citra, Simcoe, and El Dorado mid fermentation. Here's hoping it's ready, or close enough, by Dragon Boat Festival. We've got a couple months to go...
 

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