milk outmeal stout help

[walcotteric]

I found this recipe in the database. I'm looking to do a 2.5 gallon batch instead of the 5 indicated. I also read some comments saying to replace the Windsor yeast with Nottingham yest.

Couple of questions:
1) Can I just cut everything in half as far as amounts go?
2) Windsor vs. Nottingham? Which should I use
3) any other recommended improvements (if so, why?)

Here's the original recipe I found:

Recipe Type: Extract
Yeast: Windsor
Yeast Starter: None
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: None
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.024
IBU: ~17
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: ~35 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 11 @ 70
Tasting Notes: Nearly opaque with a creamy tan head. Subtly sweet, toasted malts come through, crisp

M.O. Stout (Milk Oatmeal Stout)

Light Dry Malt Extract – 4 lbs
American 2 Row - 8 oz
Black Patent – 8 oz
Chocolate Malt – 12 oz
CARAPILS – 8 oz
Lactose – 1 lb
Oats, Flaked – 1 lb
Fuggle Pellet Hops – 1 oz (60 min)
Fuggle Pellet Hops - 1 oz (5 min)
Windsor Yeast
Irish Moss - 1 tsp

Steep oats for 15 minutes at 115 F.
Bring temp up to 155.
Steep grains and oats for 45 minutes.
Remove from heat.
Add malt extract.
Bring to boil.
Add bittering hops with 60 minutes remaining.
Add 1 tsp Irish Moss and 1 lb lactose at with 15 min remaining.
Add aroma hops with 5 minutes remaining.

 

[LBussy]

The Windsor is not a great yeast for newer brewer IMHO. It has lower attenuation which might seem great up front for this type of beer but it also does not floc well at all. You've got added unfermentables so use those to provide the residual sugars. The Windsor is also pretty fruity/estery - I think I'd prefer the other flavors in the recipe over a fruity ale yeast.

Scorecard (for style):

• Attenuation: Windsor
• Floculation: Nottingham
• Flavor profile: Nottingham

Aside from that splitting the batch in half should be fine as a starting point. If it turns out well you'll only have a case though.

 

[fatnoah]

The biggest issue I think you'll have with cutting the ingredients in half is the hop utilization. It isn't a linear relationship so the IBUs might be off. I brewed a 2.5 gal batch of a very similar beer (a milk chocolate stout) recently. I used 1oz (5.8% alpha) EKG @ 35 min as my only hop addition and I calculated that to be 32 IBUs.

Another potential issue I see is the oats. I've read (and believe) you can't really steep the oats. They have to be mashed. I see you have a small amount of 2-row in your recipe which I am guessing is meant to help with the oat conversion, but I am not sure that 8oz is enough to get the job done. I could be wrong.

As for the yeast, I used notty in mine and it worked great. I don't have any experience with Windsor, but if you use the notty, keep your tempts stable between 60 and 70F it will treat you right.

If you want my 2.5 gal batch recipe just PM me and I'll be happy to share.

 

[LBussy]

The hop utilization is a crapshoot but I think the formulas fall apart on things like this.

Conversion *should* be fine. American 2-row's diastatic power is about 140. With 1.5# of starches that comes to only 23, but oats are not going to have as much to convert to sugars so in the context of a brew like this I'd think it would be okay. 6-row would be better, bumping the 2-row to a full pound would not hurt and would absolutely be fine.

 

[walcotteric]

Thanks for all the feedback. As for the oats, why would I not be able to just steep them? Can you explain what difference it could (should) make whether I steep them or mash them?

 

[walcotteric]

Also, I did some reading on using 2-row to help with the diastatic power, and I saw it suggested that you use a 1:1 ratio of 2-row to oats. Could that solve my problem instead of mashing the oats?

 

[LBussy]

Thanks for all the feedback. As for the oats, why would I not be able to just steep them? Can you explain what difference it could (should) make whether I steep them or mash them?

Oats are not fermentable as they sit. If you steep them you make oatmeal which tastes real nice but is not exactly what you want in beer. Mashing allows the enzymes to convert any starches into sugars. Otherwise starches go into the beer, which at best only settles out and at worst makes starch haze, or way on the bad end of the scale they will scorch in your boil which is a real not so good thing.

Also, I did some reading on using 2-row to help with the diastatic power, and I saw it suggested that you use a 1:1 ratio of 2-row to oats. Could that solve my problem instead of mashing the oats?

You are on the right track. It's generally accepted that you need a diastatic power of 35 to convert starches. Oats have 0 and American 2-row has about 140.

You add up all the diastatic ratings and then divide by the weight (average) so 1 lb @ 140 and 1# at 0 is 140/2 or comes to 70 which is good. In the original recipe you have a eight ounces at 140 and 16 ounces at 0. (140 * 8) + (16 * 0) / 24 = 46.7 so you can see this is enough. Higher is a more sure bet so 1:1 of the oats and grains might be easier and convert better/quicker for you.

Notice I completely ignored your Black Patent, Chocolate and Carapils. Those don't need to be converted so to my way of thinking they don't use any of our diastatic power. Some folks will figure in all those weights. I never have, I think it's overkill. If you were just doing extract with those you would simply steep them and call it done.

So, back to your recipe I don't see a single thing wrong with using it with the existing ratios at the temps and times stated. If I were to design a recipe I might take out some of the extract and add back in more grain BUT I have every confidence that this will work. At least on paper it seems fine.

 

[walcotteric]

Awesome. Thanks a ton. I'll update on how it goes. Hoping to brew this weekend.

 

[walcotteric]

Follow up question, so this is basically partial mash brewing now right? Or is there another step invovled?

 

[fatnoah]

My understanding is that this would be considered partial mash brewing. I think that if you've got conversion going on its mashing. This isn't the most traditional way to do a partial mash but I would call it a partial mash.

Out of curiosity how big is your brew kettle? If you've got a 5 gal brew kettle you could make a real nice 2.5 gal all grain oatmeal milk stout using BIAB. My desire to make an oatmeal stout is what got me to try all grain BIAB. I was going to do a partial mash but then realized that with all most no extra effort I could just do it all grain. I just got a giant grain bag from my LHBS and away I went.

 

[walcotteric]

My understanding is that this would be considered partial mash brewing. I think that if you've got conversion going on its mashing. This isn't the most traditional way to do a partial mash but I would call it a partial mash.

Out of curiosity how big is your brew kettle? If you've got a 5 gal brew kettle you could make a real nice 2.5 gal all grain oatmeal milk stout using BIAB. My desire to make an oatmeal stout is what got me to try all grain BIAB. I was going to do a partial mash but then realized that with all most no extra effort I could just do it all grain. I just got a giant grain bag from my LHBS and away I went.

I've got a 5 gallon brew kettle. I'm not sure I'm familiar with doing all grain BIAB, I've read a bit about it, but can you give me an idea what that would entail in this particular recipe?

 

[fatnoah]

I've just gotten into BIAB myself so don't take what I say as law. But basically, you replace the malt extract with a base grain. For the 2.5 gal oatmeal stout I made I used 4 lbs. of maris otter. I got the LHBS to crush it pretty fine. Then I toasted the oats in the oven at 300F for about 20 min. and turned the oven off. Meanwhile, I brought 3.5 gal water in my kettle up to 163F, added my giant grain bag that just barely fit in it, clamped the grain bag to the sides with clothes pins. Then I slowly added all the grain (oats, specialty, and base malt) stirring the whole time to break up any dough balls. Then I checked the temp. and adjusted the temp. so that it was right at 153F and stable for a minute or two (if it is too hot add a small amount of cold tap water if it is too cold turn the burner on low and stir for a few minutes). Then I put the lid on my kettle and carefully stuck it in the (now off, but still warm) oven. I took it out at 30 min to make sure the temp was still around 153F (I think it was), then back in the oven for 30 min. At the end the temp was at 152F (which is not a big deal at all). Then I raised the temp to 170F for mashout. Let it sit at 170F for 10 min. Then I lifted the grain bag out of the pot, after it drained over the pot for a bit, I put it in a colander over my bottling bucket. While that was draining I started heating the wort up in the kettle on the stove. When the grain bag was cool enough to touch, I squeeze the bejeebus out of it. I added the wort that was collected in my bottling bucket back to the kettle. Then I brought it all up to boil and proceeded just like any extract brew.

The whole process did add some extra time, but not that much extra "hands on" time. I am going to bottle this weekend, but the hydrometer sample I pulled last weekend to check the gravity tasted fantastic. It got me hooked.

 

[walcotteric]

I've just gotten into BIAB myself so don't take what I say as law. But basically, you replace the malt extract with a base grain. For the 2.5 gal oatmeal stout I made I used 4 lbs. of maris otter. I got the LHBS to crush it pretty fine. Then I toasted the oats in the oven at 300F for about 20 min. and turned the oven off. Meanwhile, I brought 3.5 gal water in my kettle up to 163F, added my giant grain bag that just barely fit in it, clamped the grain bag to the sides with clothes pins. Then I slowly added all the grain (oats, specialty, and base malt) stirring the whole time to break up any dough balls. Then I checked the temp. and adjusted the temp. so that it was right at 153F and stable for a minute or two (if it is too hot add a small amount of cold tap water if it is too cold turn the burner on low and stir for a few minutes). Then I put the lid on my kettle and carefully stuck it in the (now off, but still warm) oven. I took it out at 30 min to make sure the temp was still around 153F (I think it was), then back in the oven for 30 min. At the end the temp was at 152F (which is not a big deal at all). Then I raised the temp to 170F for mashout. Let it sit at 170F for 10 min. Then I lifted the grain bag out of the pot, after it drained over the pot for a bit, I put it in a colander over my bottling bucket. While that was draining I started heating the wort up in the kettle on the stove. When the grain bag was cool enough to touch, I squeeze the bejeebus out of it. I added the wort that was collected in my bottling bucket back to the kettle. Then I brought it all up to boil and proceeded just like any extract brew.

The whole process did add some extra time, but not that much extra "hands on" time. I am going to bottle this weekend, but the hydrometer sample I pulled last weekend to check the gravity tasted fantastic. It got me hooked.

This seems similar to the Partial Mash method by Death Brewer on the forums (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/)

I'm thinking of maybe just trying to go completely partial mash. How would I convert the recipe from Extract to Partial Mash? I read somewhere that a conversion rate is:

1lb grain = .75 LME = .6 DME.

Would that work? Just do that conversion for all the grains?

 

[LBussy]

Follow up question, so this is basically partial mash brewing now right? Or is there another step invovled?

I would consider this a partial mash, but it will be VERY forgiving in terms of the outcome. Use any and all information you see about mashing and apply it here if you want to get your feet wet and understand more.

Oatmeal is VERY sticky so if I were actually going to run this through a mash tun I would add rice hulls, or use all of the grains in the mash (specialty) to get a decent grain bed. This is small enough so you could squeeze out handfuls with a dish towel it the SHTF.

 

[fatnoah]

That conversion seems about right, but don't replace any of the specialty grains with extract. Keep them the same. Just add more 2-row (or base malt of your choosing) and subtract that from the extract.