Method for pruning and laying vines down in winter?

[ThePrisoner]

Most of the pruning method I've seen result in a really thick trunk after a few years.
However, I've also seen people talk about laying down vines on the ground in winter to be covered in snow etc.
If you prune and get a thick trunk, it won't be possible to lay the vines down so is there a different method to use if you live in cold climates?

 

[gregbathurst]

Cane pruning results in a trunk and one or two canes each year coming from the crown. The trunk can be as short as you want, some places in France have the trunk very close to the ground. There is no set size for vines, people adapt to their circumstances. Sometimes vines are grown very high off the ground, sometimes very low. You have to have some sort of trunk which will get old and thick, but it can be as small as you want, you just need some new buds every year.

You don't say where you live or how cold it gets in your district.

 

[Magnus314]

5 buds is the shortest trunk I've ever seen. You'll probably want to take a long shoot from the summer growth and lay it down low to survive/expand.

You could also use Low/very low vine spacing - like 6-8' , and grow most/all of the old fruit shoots low

 

[gregbathurst]

You could also use Low/very low vine spacing - like 6-8' , and grow most/all of the old fruit shoots low

I agree with close spacing of the vines, but 6-8' is fairly wide spacing. You could go as close as 3' spacing, a lot of places in Europe are 3x3' spacing. Cultivar selection and a good aspect are important in a cold climate, you won't have a very long season to ripen the grapes.

 

[Chef-Ryan]

Ok the big questions for you are.. roughly where in the world are you? What is the coldest temperature you get and for how long roughly (short snap or long cold hell). This can tell if you need to worry about burying vines

 

[ThePrisoner]

Ok the big questions for you are.. roughly where in the world are you? What is the coldest temperature you get and for how long roughly (short snap or long cold hell). This can tell if you need to worry about burying vines

Canada Zone 4 - it gets to -30 celsius here with full snow cover between January and March. Snow cover where the vines are would usually be at least 1metre for the whole season.

I guess my main point is that during the first few years, it's easy to lay the vines down but after that the trunk and cordons are too thick to move.

 

[Chef-Ryan]

Canada Zone 4 - it gets to -30 celsius here with full snow cover between January and March. Snow cover where the vines are would usually be at least 1metre for the whole season.

I guess my main point is that during the first few years, it's easy to lay the vines down but after that the trunk and cordons are too thick to move.

Ok, well there is the trick is using VSP(vertical shoot positioning). Every year you keep 3-4 canes 10-12 buds long. (wood from this past growing season) and remove the previous canes.. (keeping the trunk as well of course). you can do what they do in Prince Edward Country which is set the lowest wire low to the ground (2-3 ft) and keep the head of your vine at this level and every year you bury the whole thing or cover with geo textiles and or hay.. there is many ways that it can be done. as you may have noticed I'm in Niagara, but places like PEC, quebec, nova scotia, and almost anywhere else is trying and succeeding in growing grapes, you may not be able to grow vinifera but you can grow hybrid grapes for wine. This might give you some ideas on where to research to see what they are doing or some ideas of what you may want to try.

PS. sorry for the rambling sentences.. I sometimes type the way i think/talk which is sometimes hard to follow .. lol

 

[ThePrisoner]

Ok, well there is the trick is using VSP(vertical shoot positioning). Every year you keep 3-4 canes 10-12 buds long. (wood from this past growing season) and remove the previous canes.. (keeping the trunk as well of course). you can do what they do in Prince Edward Country which is set the lowest wire low to the ground (2-3 ft) and keep the head of your vine at this level and every year you bury the whole thing or cover with geo textiles and or hay.. there is many ways that it can be done. as you may have noticed I'm in Niagara, but places like PEC, quebec, nova scotia, and almost anywhere else is trying and succeeding in growing grapes, you may not be able to grow vinifera but you can grow hybrid grapes for wine. This might give you some ideas on where to research to see what they are doing or some ideas of what you may want to try.

PS. sorry for the rambling sentences.. I sometimes type the way i think/talk which is sometimes hard to follow .. lol

With the VPS, you get a thick T or Y trunk and cordons.
Are you saying, instead of putting the first row at 3 ft, I should put it at 1-2ft and then let it get buried in snow each year to keep it warm? cut back any long shoots in November?

 

[Chef-Ryan]

With the VPS, you get a thick T or Y trunk and cordons.
Are you saying, instead of putting the first row at 3 ft, I should put it at 1-2ft and then let it get buried in snow each year to keep it warm? cut back any long shoots in November?

Actually the Trunk will just be the only thick wood.. no cordons (cordons are 2+ year wood) and a T shape with canes (the shoots that you just harvested off of which should have lignified/harden off or turned brown and are no longer green). ignore the 3rd cane in the picture but vine in the middle is the closest picture i have in my collection at the moment, these are older cab suave (planted in 1978) and this past winter was rough on them.. but the idea would be to have the trellising wire for the bottom much lower than seen here, maybe 2-3 ft. How many vines are you planning on planting?

 

[ThePrisoner]

Right now I just have about 5 Somerset table grape vines.
But these are as a test, I would like to expand this to 50+ vines for wine in the future maybe Swenson white etc.
So, I have to make sure my cordons, trunk, and spurs are covered in snow in the winter? Is just snow enough? ie natural protection.
Posts with wire/trellis would be about 6ft high. How many buds on the canes would I leave each winter and all those would have to be below the snow too?

 

[gregbathurst]

I have a single wire for the cordon and a foliage wire running about 2 feet above. Each year the fresh growth gets attached to the foliage wire to hold it above the fruit and stop the vine from rolling over due to the weight of the canes. If you do cane pruning such as vsp you need to get a couple of good canes growing from the crown each year to replace the previous years cane. I spur prune, I leave around 10-15 buds per metre of cordon, 2 buds on each spur. You don't want to leave too many buds because lighter crops give better quality grapes

 

[ThePrisoner]

I have a single wire for the cordon and a foliage wire running about 2 feet above. Each year the fresh growth gets attached to the foliage wire to hold it above the fruit and stop the vine from rolling over due to the weight of the canes. If you do cane pruning such as vsp you need to get a couple of good canes growing from the crown each year to replace the previous years cane. I spur prune, I leave around 10-15 buds per metre of cordon, 2 buds on each spur. You don't want to leave too many buds because lighter crops give better quality grapes

What's the main difference?
I thought you had to leave one of the canes as fruits only come from 2nd year wood. But if you cut back all the way to the cordon then, it would be new shoots every spring, ie less than 1 year old?

Would the method on the left of this pic work, where the entire trunk remains buried in snow?

 

[Chef-Ryan]

Grapes come from new shoots. the way gregbathurst is describing is what is called spur pruning.. you keep the main cordon (older wood) and cut back to 2 buds every year and the buds produce new shoots and fruit. But To be truthful I think you should look at this load of stuff on grape vines and pruning, Sorry it is a ton of information but it may help explain it better then I can. (this is from my course on pruning) https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8REjFdSVQTBMGJULVRDVnBtbGs

 

[gregbathurst]

Grapevines form their flower bunches the year before fruiting. At each bud there will normally be 2 or 3 bunch primordia waiting for spring. If you want 12 buds you can leave one cane long enough for 12 buds and no permanent arm (cane pruning), or keep a permanent arm and cut back to 6 spurs with 2 buds each (spur pruning). Either way will result in about 24 bunches of grapes and both are commonly used. In Australia spur pruning is more common.
If you want to keep your vines under the snow,the 3rd picture of double guyot pruned, which is a variation of bush pruning, might be a good option, Though any of those methods might be suitable. The main reason for keeping trellises at a good height is for comfort when pruning and picking. Bending over can be hard on your back,I keep my trellis low and do the work on my knees, I keep the ground under the vines nice and soft.

 

[ThePrisoner]

Grapevines form their flower bunches the year before fruiting. At each bud there will normally be 2 or 3 bunch primordia waiting for spring. If you want 12 buds you can leave one cane long enough for 12 buds and no permanent arm (cane pruning), or keep a permanent arm and cut back to 6 spurs with 2 buds each (spur pruning). Either way will result in about 24 bunches of grapes and both are commonly used. In Australia spur pruning is more common.
If you want to keep your vines under the snow,the 3rd picture of double guyot pruned, which is a variation of bush pruning, might be a good option, Though any of those methods might be suitable. The main reason for keeping trellises at a good height is for comfort when pruning and picking. Bending over can be hard on your back,I keep my trellis low and do the work on my knees, I keep the ground under the vines nice and soft.

Ok, so the 1st year, I should pick off these bunches to make it concentrate on leaf and root growth?
Secondly, what is a renewal spur? If I just make sure each year that I cut back to 2 buds then isn't it the same renewal spur every year>?

 

[gregbathurst]

With cane pruning you can leave a spur to provide the canes for the next years growth. With spur pruning it is wise to leave a spur down near the crown in case you need to replace one of the arms due to damage or whatever, sometimes the arms need replaced. I haven't done much cane pruning but one problem is not having enough good canes to lay down. You need a good healthy renewal spur so you get good vigorous canes for the next year.
You won't get much fruit the first couple of years, the main concern is getting some good vigorous growth to tie up to the trellis. In Later years too much vigour can be a problem.
Pruning is a practical skill, something you learn by doing. It is a good idea to befriend a vineyard so you can volunteer to help with jobs and get practical experience.

 

[Masbustelo]

Regarding the 3 foot snow cover, snow is generally considered a good insulative blanket for plants. They always have a better survival rate with deep snow versus no snow. It protects them from the drying wind and big temperature fluctuations.

 

[ThePrisoner]

Should I pull off all the fruiting bodies for the 1st 2 years?

 

[gregbathurst]

You can cut off any flowers if you want to encourage vegetative growth. You need to fertilise for the first few years but after that if your soil is good you don't need to fertilise. Commercial vineyards aim for a crop in the third year but for home vineyards the 5th year might be more realistic. The first couple of crops will be small,a chance to practise your winemaking techniques.