Redpappy
Well-Known Member
As @william_shakes_beer asked, if doing multi step mash can you go high to low? Will it actually work.
I also went electricfor a variety of reasons and I can tell you that recirculating is absolutely key. Most of the electric kettles like the the M+B are tall and skinny so the temp difference between top and bottom can be upwards of 10 degrees. No bueno. You don’t need a super expensive riptide pump either. I got a super cheap aquatic pump on Amazon and swapped out the tubbing for food grade and it made a ton of difference.
Also you should investigate “strike temp”. If you are aiming for a mash of 155F don’t put your gains in at the temp. Logic will tell you the grains will immediately drop the temp of the water. I aim for a strike temp about 5F above whatever my goal is. Obviously adjust for your situation.
As @william_shakes_beer asked, if doing multi step mash can you go high to low? Will it actually work.
So if I understand correctly, alpha enzymes will turn into betta enzymes.. ie... Non-fermentable sugars turn into fermentable sugars. So in which case 6ou need to go from beta to alpha.Given it seems when Nature created the key (alpha and beta) enzymes She screwed up their respective effective temperature ranges and got them backwards that's probably the most common question asked wrt mash strategies.
Unfortunately, no, it doesn't work out well, as energizing the debranching enzyme croaks the snipping enzyme...
Cheers!
unfortantly, I’m a little to tipsy to read the article fully to understand,The enzymes do not change (aside from denaturalizing) - they do not transition from "branchers" to "snippers". Ie: Alpha The Brancher never becomes Beta The Snipper or vice versa.
https://byo.com/article/understanding-enzymes-homebrew-science/
Cheers!
Alpha is not a "de-branching" enzyme. It can cut poly-glucose chains between branches, but it cannot cut the branching bond. Cutting between branches does expose new ends that beta can work on.Given it seems when Nature created the key (alpha and beta) enzymes She screwed up their respective effective temperature ranges and got them backwards that's probably the most common question asked wrt mash strategies.
Unfortunately, no, it doesn't work out well, as energizing the debranching enzyme croaks the snipping enzyme...
Cheers!
What we need is a movie through a microscope showing the action of the enzymes. The ultmate beer porn
There are, but I don't think you could recreate mash conditions in them, or get videos of things happening in real time.i don't think there's a microscope that powerful!
There are, but I don't think you could recreate mash conditions in them, or get videos of things happening in real time.
If your mash temperature is below 149 the Beta Amylase will continue to create maltose making your wort more fermentable and drying out your beer. Above 150, there will still be some Beta activity, but it will be significantly reduced.Reading all this got me thinking, I go BIAB and usually mash for 90 mins as I read elsewhere it was beneficial and whatnot.
Lately I been running iodine tests at the 60 min mark and have always gotten full conversion by that point.
Is there any point in keeping the mash going after the iodine test says its ok , or am I just wasting my time??
Please let us know how it ends up. I for one would like to hear the results.@Holden Caulfield
That makes a lot of sense actually, but got me thinking if that "residual" beta-amylase activity is significative and worth spending 30 minutes more waiting for.
Figure most of the maltose would be broken up in the first 60 mins , would there be enough left after that to make a discernible difference?
Edit: Will try to brew 2 batches of the same recipe this weekend (a smash pale ale wth arg-cascade) with 60 and 90 mashes to answer this for myself , call it a mini-exbeeriment if you wish.
@Holden Caulfield
That makes a lot of sense actually, but got me thinking if that "residual" beta-amylase activity is significative and worth spending 30 minutes more waiting for.
Figure most of the maltose would be broken up in the first 60 mins , would there be enough left after that to make a discernible difference?
Edit: Will try to brew 2 batches of the same recipe this weekend (a smash pale ale wth arg-cascade) with 60 and 90 mashes to answer this for myself , call it a mini-exbeeriment if you wish.
Beta amylase makes maltose by biting off individual molecules off the ends of the starch molecules, so I wouldn't think about it as "maltose would be broken up" For the most part more maltose can always be made as long as there is active Beta Amylase. This is why below 149 you can make very dry beers by mashing longer because the Beta Amylase works longer. However, as you go below 149, the mash often needs to be extended beyond 60 mins to fully convert because the Alpha Amylase begins to work very slowly as well as the Beta.@Holden Caulfield
Figure most of the maltose would be broken up in the first 60 mins , would there be enough left after that to make a discernible difference?
If you don’t mind me asking, what pump did you get? Do you have the return hose connected to a side port in the kettle?
as far as strike water, I go off of beer smith, which usually has me about 4-5 degrees higher than what I need. From all the info given, seems like what I need is better insulation, to hold temp better.
Once my water is up to temp, before I start putting my grains in, i stir. If my temp falls to low, I wait till it rises up again.
I havE a spike 10g Kettle. I will admit on one brew, I got lazy And not cover my kettle, my temp was going all over the place.
This thread has got me thinking about mash temps again. Given I want a very dry beer for a light colored recipe (IPA or Pilsner) at a target 6.0 ABV, what would be the preferred mash for 90 minutes?
A) 152 for entire mash
B) 147 for x minutes then 156 for remaining
C) 156 then let it naturally drop with the lid off and recirculation
This thread has got me thinking about mash temps again. Given I want a very dry beer for a light colored recipe (IPA or Pilsner) at a target 6.0 ABV, what would be the preferred mash for 90 minutes?
A) 152 for entire mash
B) 147 for x minutes then 156 for remaining
C) 156 then let it naturally drop with the lid off and recirculation
I have tried A and B but didn’t notice much. I wish I had time to do a side by side but that is a long brew day with a single setup. I don’t have a controller but will do a single step manually if needed.
Also I tried to dough in quickly to bring down the water temp quickly to mash temp. Is there any appreciable denaturing in dough in that one should be concerned with?
Its how i make all my brews lately. I dont care to control mash temps at all. I heat to high 150s or 160, add my grain and then go do some household chores. Pop back in once in a while and stir up my grains. Depending on time of year, my temp may drop to 148 in about 90 mins. Sometimes might just be an hour. Not really reverse step mashing, rather just letting it coold down by itself.As @william_shakes_beer asked, if doing multi step mash can you go high to low? Will it actually work.
I think there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest you let your mash temp swing 3-5 degrees then the affect on taste is indistinguishable. If you mash a beer recipe at 154 one week and 150 the next, then given all the other variables that can change, youll get pretty much the same beer. Attempting to maintain it within a half degree. Is it necesssary? People spend a lot of money to acheive this, and alot of energy worrying about it.@Nubiwan - I sincerely think its great you’re happy with your process and the outcome of yours beer. However, I hope you aren’t suggesting that people who are particular about their mash temps cannot tell the difference in their results or that it is “all in their head”, so to speak. I think there are people on the forum who brew at a high level (higher than you AND me) who can make those distinctions and I respect that and try to learn something from those folks. I also respect your process Simply because YOU are satisfied with it.
If you mash a beer recipe at 154 one week and 150 the next, then given all the other variables that can change, youll get pretty much the same beer.
Just to be clear, fermentability of the wort, thus attenuation, thus FG and ABV, will be different. So it won't be the same beer. But, if the difference isn't important to the brewer, that's fine.
I think it verging on a myth. Trying to maintain consistent mash temps. Willing to see anecdotal evidence to the contrary. A ploy to make you buy needless hardware. Blankets and toys etc.
I feel a Brulosphy Exbeeriment coming on here, mash one beer at 151F and another at 154f and see if tasters can pick out the different beer in a triangle test?
You put it perfectly, IMO. Commercial brewers MUST focus on numbers for high consistency and, more importantly, profitability. I confess I care about numbers to a degree only because I want to have some predictability— I’m still very much learning.A lot of brewers focus a lot on numbers. But what really matters to the drinker / consumer / ME is not the numbers, but how it actually tastes. If it tastes great either way, why should we care about numbers.
Beauty is truly in the eye, or in this case the hand & mouth, of the beerholder.
Ah yes indeed, ABV and gravities might well change, but how easily would a home brewer distinguish it in taste? I suggest the anecdotal evidence (again) suggests few people, if any can tell.Just to be clear, fermentability of the wort, thus attenuation, thus FG and ABV, will be different. So it won't be the same beer. But, if the difference isn't important to the brewer, that's fine.
They did do a porter at extreme temps lately, and while they never had a panel of tasters (due to COVID), the brewer did blind test himself, and picked out the different beer nearly every time. What was telling is that he did in fact think the lower temp beer had better body and mouthfeel, which rather flies in the face of the "generally accepted principals of brewing" does it not?That's been done. And no they couldn't reliably tell a difference in a short range (not that this is saying much, pretty anecdotal):
https://brulosophy.com/2016/08/22/t...eme-temperature-variance-exbeeriment-results/
Comparing the extremes of mash temps was a little more interesting:
https://brulosophy.com/2018/08/13/mash-temperature-147f-64c-vs-164-73c-exbeeriment-results/
What was telling is that he did in fact think the lower temp beer had better body and mouthfeel, which rather flies in the face of the "generally accepted principals of brewing" does it not?
Enter your email address to join: