Mash decisions based on malt specs?

[DylanTO]

Hey all,

My next brew will be a Gratzer, smoked wheat beer.

The grist is 100% wheat. Mainly weyermann oak-smoked wheat, with some midnight or chocolate wheat for a dark color. I would, of course, use a generous helping of rice hulls too. (1 - 2lb in a 10gal batch?)

I am trying to decide whether or not I need/want to do a protein rest in the mash.

I've seen a number of threads, here and elsewhere, saying that it's not needed and could even be detrimental to head retention and body when using well-modified malts.

So, I pulled up weyermann's spec sheet on the malt:
http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/s...nn_Specifications_englisch_Crop 2014_neu2.zip

and morebeer's "Understanding malt analysis sheets" by Greg Noonan:
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/bmg/noonan.html

Based on the spec sheet, the malt appears to be quite well modified, with a Kolbach index of 37.5 - 47.

However, the viscosity is quite high (according to Noonan) at 2.2.

Regarding the viscosity, Noonan says, "A malt that shows a high laboratory wort viscosity (over 1.75 cP) will not run off well during sparging. The higher the viscosity, the greater the need for a decoction program -- or less effectively, a step mash -- to break down �-glucans."

So my main question is this...

Do I need a protein rest or not?!

 

[ajdelange]

I have never had a head retention problem as a consequence of doing a protein rest - certainly not with a wheat beer. At the same time it is only fair to point out that I have never done without a protein rest so the possibility of an even more impressive head that I got (always the classic) has to be allowed. The profile I always used was from Eric Warners monograph on wheat beers in the AHA series.

OTOH I did on one occasion omit the protein rest from two ales made with Maris Otter (I don't remember whose) and got a protein haze that never went away. A year later it was still in the beer.

 

[Yooper]

I have never had a head retention problem as a consequence of doing a protein rest - certainly not with a wheat beer. At the same time it is only fair to point out that I have never done without a protein rest so the possibility of an even more impressive head that I got (always the classic) has to be allowed. The profile I always used was from Eric Warners monograph on wheat beers in the AHA series.

OTOH I did on one occasion omit the protein rest from two ales made with Maris Otter (I don't remember whose) and got a protein haze that never went away. A year later it was still in the beer.

I wonder- when I do a step mash with well-modified malt I tend to go with a 131/133 temperature rest instead of the traditional protease rest of 122ish.

Of course, I don't do 100% wheat beers so I'm not sure that this would be the same, but my understanding is that temperatures closer to 122 tend to produce more short chained proteins, while depleting the long and medium chained proteins. It would be that character in well-modified malts that could lead to a loss of body and head retention. That's why if I do a decoction or infusion step mash, I will do the protein rest at the high end.

I don't do very many step mashes, so the results I see are at best anecdotal, but it makes sense to me.

 

[DylanTO]

I have never had a head retention problem as a consequence of doing a protein rest - certainly not with a wheat beer. At the same time it is only fair to point out that I have never done without a protein rest so the possibility of an even more impressive head that I got (always the classic) has to be allowed. The profile I always used was from Eric Warners monograph on wheat beers in the AHA series.

OTOH I did on one occasion omit the protein rest from two ales made with Maris Otter (I don't remember whose) and got a protein haze that never went away. A year later it was still in the beer.

Thanks for your reply AJ! Sounds like a decoction mash might be the way to go.

 

[giraffe]

Traditionally these beers were very clear. Ive made a handful of grodziskies, and generally mashed at 105(20-30)-130(20)-153 (With decoctions, not sure if that matters). Id avoid a rest at mid 120s as Yooper described, though a short rest Im sure wont hurt. There is the general advice about protein rests not being necessary, but this is a special case; its a 100% wheat beer, the protein % is a teeny bit higher than normal.

The beers came out crystal clear with huge billowing head that never goes away. Which for a 1.030-1.040 beer is impressive. Personally I wouldnt be concerned.

 

[DylanTO]

I wonder- when I do a step mash with well-modified malt I tend to go with a 131/133 temperature rest instead of the traditional protease rest of 122ish.

Of course, I don't do 100% wheat beers so I'm not sure that this would be the same, but my understanding is that temperatures closer to 122 tend to produce more short chained proteins, while depleting the long and medium chained proteins. It would be that character in well-modified malts that could lead to a loss of body and head retention. That's why if I do a decoction or infusion step mash, I will do the protein rest at the high end.

I don't do very many step mashes, so the results I see are at best anecdotal, but it makes sense to me.

That's very interesting Yooper, thanks!

Eric Warner's triple decoction schedule that AJ mentioned above goes 122 > 147 > 159 > 172, if I'm not mistaken. Now I'm really not sure what to go with.

I suppose this could be a good opportunity to experiment and report back.

 

[DylanTO]

Traditionally these beers were very clear. Ive made a handful of grodziskies, and generally mashed at 105(20-30)-130(20)-153 (With decoctions, not sure if that matters). Id avoid a rest at mid 120s as Yooper described, though a short rest Im sure wont hurt. There is the general advice about protein rests not being necessary, but this is a special case; its a 100% wheat beer, the protein % is a teeny bit higher than normal.

The beers came out crystal clear with huge billowing head that never goes away. Which for a 1.030-1.040 beer is impressive. Personally I wouldnt be concerned.

Thanks giraffe!

To be clear, are you saying that you wouldn't be concerned with doing a protein rest or that you wouldn't be concerned about negative effects of a protein rest?

 

[motobrewer]

OTOH I did on one occasion omit the protein rest from two ales made with Maris Otter (I don't remember whose) and got a protein haze that never went away. A year later it was still in the beer.

AJ-

Do you always do a protein rest with MO? 122F? how long?

 

[giraffe]

Thanks giraffe!

To be clear, are you saying that you wouldn't be concerned with doing a protein rest or that you wouldn't be concerned about negative effects of a protein rest?

I wouldnt be concerned with the negative effects of doing a protein rest in a 100% smoked wheat grodziskie in particular.

 

[VictorBrew]

Rather than add a new thread, just wanted to get advice on the exact same questions on mash temps for Piwo Grodziske / Grätzer style (27E). Hopeful to find a happy medium approach for mashing. Considering it is 100% Oak Smoked Wheat Malt grain bill, I am considering the following approach to incorporate a protein rest at the higher end of the temp range mentioned in the above threads rather then just use a single infusion temp. Interested in comments or suggestions:

5.5 Gall batch using 6 lbs Weyermann Oak Smoked Wheat Malt

Mash schedule:
131° for 20 min
152° for 60 min (infusion)
168° mash out (infusion)
Batch sparge at 168°