Making the move to all grain brewing

[ABeerZale]

Ok, so we've done a few brews using liquid extract and have been very tasty.

Now we are going to try all grain, BUT we are somewhat limited by space. We've got a 30ltr thermofridge with filter and tap to do the mash. As this is being done on a vitro ceramic cooker , up till now we have used a 10 ltr pot to boil the wort and it's going to be the same this time round. My plan is to boil as much wort as possible and then top up with tap water before fermenting , pretty much the same way we did with liquid extract. Will this method work fine? How will this affect following some of the recipes on here? Is my thinking flawed?

Also the plan is to do an IPA for which I have the following ingredients:
5kg Pale Malt 7,
0.5kg Malt Cara 50,
0.5kg Malt Cara Gold 120
0.5kg Malt Castle Crystal 130
100g of Chinook ( idea is to use it for bittering ) and
100 g of Cascade and Amarillo ,
2 sachets of Safale S-04 and
10 Irish Moss tablets.

As you can see, I've got a few doubts .Any suggestions/recommendations greatly appreciated.

 

[Travestian]

You have to be able to do a full boil for all grain. You can not simply top off with tap water after boiling a smaller amount since you won't have collected the amount of sugars you need for the wort. It would be a major pain but you could collect all the runnings in separate pots, then boil in separate pots and split the hop additions accordingly. Then combine them all in your carboy/bucket.

 

[ABeerZale]

You have to be able to do a full boil for all grain. You can not simply top off with tap water after boiling a smaller amount since you won't have collected the amount of sugars you need for the wort. It would be a major pain but you could collect all the runnings in separate pots, then boil in separate pots and split the hop additions accordingly. Then combine them all in your carboy/bucket.

Really? In other threads I was lead to believe that once you have boiled , let's say 10 ltrs of wort with hop additions. , that this could be topped up to your desired batch size.
Is this simply diluting the wort?

 

[LovesIPA]

The problem is that when you rinse the sugars from the grain, you typically need a lot of water to do so. In fact, you'll never need less water than it takes to do a full boil.

The only way you could really do partial boils with all-grain is by only collecting the first runnings and not sparging at all. You would probably get about 40% efficiency so plan on doubling the grain bill every time you brew.

It's just not practical.

 

[BigFloyd]

Travestian has a valid point. When you do mash/lauter tun AG, you'll want to have a certain water/grain ratio for the mash. After mashing and draining the first wort off, you'll need to sparge (some method of either batch or fly) to flush out the remaining sugars. That's more water. By the time you're done with that, you'll have around 7-7.5 gallons of pre-boil wort. Keep in mind that all of the wort must go through the boil (60-90 min) to drive off DMS. Tough to do with what you have.

I'll suggest that you take a step back and consider this for just a bit. Your goal is to make good beer and have fun doing it. Your extract brews have been tasty, so consider taking the intermediate step of doing partial mash (or "mini-mash") batches. You can do those on the stove top with what you have, add another dimension to your brewing and learn a few new techniques. As you do that, consider whether you want to later do mash tun or BIAB. Gather more info. There are advantages to each. I have done extract, AG mash tun, currently do E-BIAB and had fun with them all.

Another thing to consider if you live in the south (as I do) is fermentation temp control. That is very likely the one aspect of brewing that can improve your beers much more than anything else (including switching from extract to AG). What are you currently doing to pitch/ferment your ales in the mid-60's?

 

[Flipadelphia]

I agree with Transvestite as well

 

[ABeerZale]

Thanks for the responses.

What if were to scale down the batch size? Instead of going for the usual 20-23 litre batch, what if we took it down to say a final batch of 10 litres.(that's 2.64 US gallons )?

 

[LovesIPA]

You have the same problem regardless of batch size.

 

[ABeerZale]

Travestian has a valid point. When you do mash/lauter tun AG, you'll want to have a certain water/grain ratio for the mash. After mashing and draining the first wort off, you'll need to sparge (some method of either batch or fly) to flush out the remaining sugars. That's more water. By the time you're done with that, you'll have around 7-7.5 gallons of pre-boil wort. Keep in mind that all of the wort must go through the boil (60-90 min) to drive off DMS. Tough to do with what you have.

I'll suggest that you take a step back and consider this for just a bit. Your goal is to make good beer and have fun doing it. Your extract brews have been tasty, so consider taking the intermediate step of doing partial mash (or "mini-mash") batches. You can do those on the stove top with what you have, add another dimension to your brewing and learn a few new techniques. As you do that, consider whether you want to later do mash tun or BIAB. Gather more info. There are advantages to each. I have done extract, AG mash tun, currently do E-BIAB and had fun with them all.

Another thing to consider since you live in the south (as I do) is fermentation temp control. That is very likely the one aspect of brewing that can improve your beers much more than anything else (including switching from extract to AG). What are you currently doing to pitch/ferment your ales in the mid-60's?

As it's a but hot here at he moment , we won't be brewing till mid Sept, temperature will safely be between 18-25 ° C / 64-75° F

 

[BigFloyd]

As it's a but hot here at he moment , we won't be brewing till mid Sept, temperature will safely be between 18-25 ° C / 64-75° F

Unfortunately, fermenting w/ no cooling efforts in a room that's even at the low range of those temps is flirting with off-flavors. Doing so at the mid to high range will almost certainly produce some unwanted tastes.

The reason is that, when it's at its most active, fermentation is rather exothermic. A 5-gallon batch fermenting in a 68*F room can easily reach temps around 75*F. You'll make much better beers if you do something to consistently keep the beer (not air) temp in the middle 60's for the first 4-5 days. There are lots of options discussed in other threads, especially in the "yeast and fermentation" sub-forum.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Your best bet is to purchase the right equipment before starting, get everything you need to do it right or you will have one bad experience after another.

Figure out what size batches you will be making, (I make 6 gallon batches, I prefer to have 5 or 6 different brews available) research what you will need, and slowly purchase the correct equipment for your particular needs, just because someone is making 20 gallon batches, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to, right out of the gates.

The most important thing that you can do right now if make sure that you know what is involved, and are prepared for all aspects of brewing all grain, from crushing the grains, mashing, boiling the wort, monitoring temps, chilling the wort, monitoring gravity levels, fermenting, racking and so on, that is just an overview, but trust me when I say..no need to rush in unprepared, you will have so much more fun if you are ready.

 

[Deicide]

I realize the OP is using a smaller kettle than I mention below.
But to say you *MUST* do full boils to do all grain is kinda misleading.

I do all grain BIAB all the time without doing a full boil.
I use a 5.5 gallon pot and a 5 gallon pot.
I can mash up to 10-11lbs of grain in my 5.5 gallon pot with 3-3.5 gallons of water. I then use the second pot to heat about 1.5 gallons to 170F for a dunk sparge (I just put the bag in the pot stir the grain really well then let sit for 10mins, basically a mash out.) then add all liquid to my 5.5 gallon pot and boil. I adjust my hops using beersmith to get the IBU's I'm looking for then top off in the fermentor with tap water to get 5.25 gallons.

This has been my process for my last 10+ brews and all have turned out to be absolutely amazing brews.

I should mention that I only brew 5 gallon batches of session beers and anything else I only do 3 gallon batches of (love my 3 gallon kegs).

As always YMMV!



-deicide

 

[sixt3]

I realize the OP is using a smaller kettle than I mention below.
But to say you *MUST* do full boils to do all grain is kinda misleading.

I do all grain BIAB all the time without doing a full boil.
I use a 5.5 gallon pot and a 5 gallon pot.
I can mash up to 10-11lbs of grain in my 5.5 gallon pot with 3-3.5 gallons of water. I then use the second pot to heat about 1.5 gallons to 170F for a dunk sparge (I just put the bag in the pot stir the grain really well then let sit for 10mins, basically a mash out.) then add all liquid to my 5.5 gallon pot and boil. I adjust my hops using beersmith to get the IBU's I'm looking for then top off in the fermentor with tap water to get 5.25 gallons.

This has been my process for my last 10+ brews and all have turned out to be absolutely amazing brews.

I should mention that I only brew 5 gallon batches of session beers and anything else I only do 3 gallon batches of (love my 3 gallon kegs).
U
As always YMMV!



-deicide

Isn't adding the 3 and a half gallons to the 1 and a half gal in the same pot and then boiling it together what is known as a full-boil? I am a newb, looking to start small-batch stove-top AG, so just looking for pertinent info.....

 

[Deicide]

Isn't adding the 3 and a half gallons to the 1 and a half gal in the same pot and then boiling it together what is known as a full-boil? I am a newb, looking to start small-batch stove-top AG, so just looking for pertinent info.....

After boil off as well as the grain absorbing at least a 1/2 gallon if not more I usually need to add anywhere from 1-2 gallons to achieve 5.25 gallons in the fermentor.
When doing smaller batches I do full boils and honestly haven't noticed any difference as far as quality of the finished product.
I do realize that full boils are easier but this method allows me to stay in my nice central air when brewing.

-deicide

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I agree with Transvestite as well

Best autocorrect error of the day!

 

[sixt3]

After boil off as well as the grain absorbing at least a 1/2 gallon if not more I usually need to add anywhere from 1-2 gallons to achieve 5.25 gallons in the fermentor.
When doing smaller batches I do full boils and honestly haven't noticed any difference as far as quality of the finished product.
I do realize that full boils are easier but this method allows me to stay in my nice central air when brewing.

-deicide

Ahhh, I get it Thank you for the clarification. Yes, a full boil would be quite a big more volume to start with. Then, after loss to boiloff and to the grain... I get it.

Thanks again .... there is so much info on this site!

 

[woozy]

What every one says about sugar is correct.

Think about it. Let's say you want post-boil post-topping 19 liters at original gravity 1.058. That's 1102 metrical gravitational units of sugar [1][2][3]. The "normal" full boil way of doing things is extract those 1102 units of sugar with 28 liters of runnings and create 28 liters of liquid that has a specific gravity of 1.039[4]. Then they boil it down to 19 liters with an original gravity of 1.058[5].
For 10 liter boil, you are going to need to create 10 liters of liquid to make 10 liters with a specific gravity of 1.110[6]
Deicide, above, doesn't do a full boil. Were he shooting for a 1.058 o.g. then he actually extracts 5 gallons at 1.061 [7]
Well, creating 1.039 gravity with 28 liters and a *hell* of a lot easier than creating 10 liters of 1.110. For one thing, the more water you use the more sugar you can get out[8]. You can increase the total amount of sugar by increasing the grains but you'll need to increase them quite a bit.

So you really have tfour choices.
1.) Up your grain bill greatly.
2.) Do a partial mash[9]
3.) Do a smaller batch.
4.) Get a bigger kettle.

================

[1] a metric gravitational unit of sugar is the amount of sugar it takes to raise a liter of liquid 1 gravity point; basically 2.6 grams if I did the math right.
[2] In US with gallons we use unit of sugar to raise a gallon of liguid 1 gravity point which is of course about 4 times more. 1/46 of a pound by my rekonning.
[3] volume * gravity points = gravity units.
Specific gravity of 1.058 is 58 units of sugar per liter. so 19 liters is 19*58 = 1102 units of sugar that is needed.
[4] gravity points = gravity units/volume
1102 units distributed over 28 liters means each liter has 39 units of sugar. That's enough for the gravity to raise 39 points so the s.g. would be 1.039
[5]When we boil the 1102 units of sugar aren't going anywhere. There are still the same units of sugar but they are more condensed. Condensed into a wort with an o.g. of 1.058.
[6] You still need to extract those 1102 units of sugar. But in only 10 liters they are quite condensed. They are condensed into a liquid with gravity 1.110.
[7] He needs enough sugar to raise 5.25 gallons 58 points. And he extracts that into 5 gallons. Thats 1/21 as condensed so the gravity will be 1/21 as high. So the specific gravity will be 1.061.
[8] This is related to your efficiency. Efficiency doesn't directly relate to your gravity but actually to how many units of sugar you can get out of the grain. Your grain will have a potiential of, lets pick a number out of the air, of 1540 units. If you can extract 1102 you will have an efficiency of 71%. It doesn't matter whether you can do this with 10 liters or 100 liters. If you can get 71% of the sugars out you have an efficiency of 71%
**But** it is *much* easier to get more grains of sugar out with more water than less. Getting 1102 units from 5 kg with 10 liters of water is practically impossible. Getting 1102 units from the same 5 kg with 28 gallons is easy.
[9] In which case you'd aim for only getting a smaller total number of sugars out. Perhaps only 551 units of sugar. You'd need to get the remaining units of sugar for extracts.

 

[Travestian]

Thanks for the responses.

What if were to scale down the batch size? Instead of going for the usual 20-23 litre batch, what if we took it down to say a final batch of 10 litres.(that's 2.64 US gallons )?

If you scale down you should be fine as long as you can boil the FULL volume. Like I mentioned before, you can boil the full amount in separate kettles. I had to do a 90 minute boil this way before as I needed to boil 8 gallons and I have an 8 gallon pot. I simply drew off a full 8 gallons after sparging then put 1.5 gallons into another pot to boil on the stove top. I boiled both at the same time and I split my first 90 minute hop addition proportionally. Once 45 minutes had gone by I was able to transfer the 1.5 gallon amount to the 8 gallon pot and still have head room for the boil.