Make IPA Clear Again

[Brooothru]

Perhaps the last full pour from my first Ballantine IPA clone attempt, gone fairly bright...




Cheers!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Like most tall tales it's elements of truth spun into fantasy. As far as I recall, more accurately plenty of Porter went to India, and that was mostly what the rank and file soldiers drank. Around the same time came the advances in malting technology that allowed for the production of pale malt (and thus pale beer). But if I recall correctly it was rarer and more expensive that the previously existing all-brown malt beers of the day, and ended up being the more upper class beer. But officers who'd gotten a taste for Pale Ale wanted that shipped to India as well, and THAT is how IPA was born. However was little to no (emphasis on no) functional overarching difference between Pale Ale and IPA. One brewery's Pale Ale would be stronger and hoppier than the next's IPA. And then a few month later they could take exact same Pale Ale and start calling it an IPA (or vice versa).

And of course, we can't forget that all beers of the day were ludicrously hopped by modern standards. Browse through Shut Up About Barclay Perkins (or one of Ron's books) and you'll be blown away how much hop was going in beers, whether they were going to India or not.

Old, I know. This is appropos to something I'm working on, so felt it might be worth revisiting.

Doing a very simple IPA of 100% Warminster MO and 100% EKG. Probably most like the 1868 Tetley at OG 1.062 - however, yes, like a 1924 Courage RIS, very perplexed by the listed IBUs (in the Tetley case, 146 IBU, for a BU:GU of 2.35; with the 1839 Reid and 1853 Younger being even higher - BU:GU of 3.1 and 3.4 respectively). In fact on his blog, he specifically says he lowers from the original listed IBUs to take hop aging into account:

Care should be taken with the quantity of hops used. I reduce the original quantities, to take into account the age of the hops. But it’s all very much guesswork. When the hops were kept in a cold store, I don't reduce the quantities by as much.

-so that contradicts what I'd thought, namely, exactly that - either the AA's of the hops from them were much, much lower, or his recipes are based on aged hops (they are - but per above, he already discounts that) and so we should parse a reduction accordingly.

Therefore, I can only conclude the palate for bitterness back then was what we'd consider insanely bitter now - right?

I read on a Courage thread, I think, that there is a sensory threshold for IBU bitterness that tops out at about 100 or so.

Even so, I don't know I have the guts to actually make a beer going all the way to these IBU levels (waste good malt and hops?). I plan on OG 1.062 and IBU of about 68 with WP and 30 min. hopstand.

Anyone actually just done it verbatim?

 

[sibelman]

"... very much guesswork..."

I seem to recall reading that adding more hops has diminishing returns, to the point where IBUs above 100 are more numerical than real. Perhaps this is the "sensory threshold" you mention.

You seem torn between best effort to make a historical beer and fear of making a beer you don't want to drink.

I suggest a small batch with mega hops, @Gadjobrinus.

 

[mac_1103]

I read on a Courage thread, I think, that there is a sensory threshold for IBU bitterness that tops out at about 100 or so.

It's not just a sensory threshold. There is also the saturation point of iso-alpha acids which is around 110.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

"... very much guesswork..."

I seem to recall reading that adding more hops has diminishing returns, to the point where IBUs above 100 are more numerical than real. Perhaps this is the "sensory threshold" you mention.

You seem torn between best effort to make a historical beer and fear of making a beer you don't want to drink.

I suggest a small batch with mega hops, @Gadjobrinus.

Right, but the guesswork, I think, is to try and capture their original bitterness - reducing only enough to try and account for the aging - nothing to do with v. modern sensibility, I think. And, more what I'm after is trying to make a Victorian beer, and there's the rub - whether they just really liked massively bitter beers, that our palate is just radically different. Ultimately you're right - if nothing else some simple two row. Thanks.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

It's not just a sensory threshold. There is also the saturation point of iso-alpha acids which is around 110.

Sorry, that was it, not a sensory threshold but a physical limit. Thanks. Was that your comment I'm thinking of?

 

[sibelman]

Two possible upper limits: can't get more alpha acids into the beer 'cuz saturated, and can't experience more 'cuz, er, taste buds maxxed out.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Two possible upper limits: can't get more alpha acids into the beer 'cuz saturated, and can't experience more 'cuz, er, taste buds maxxed out.

Right - but the question remains, in the absence of either - were Victorians just really into insane amounts of bitterness, or are they more in line with us, and for whatever reason, 262 IBUs isn't equivalent in perceived bitterness to what 262 IBUs would be to us today?

Only 1 way to find out, like you say. Should be eye opening!

Edit: This, for example, from the 1850 Truman Imperial Stout:

Then there is just a whole load of hops. An almost unimaginable quantity: three quarters of a ton. For just 185 barrels. No surprise, then, that the calculated IBUs are in the impossible zone.

So it's not clear for me here quite what he's saying on the actual, perceived bitterness. From the thread on the 1848 "Original" Imperial Stout, I think it was (can't quite recall), there was some discussion on Ron indicating these beers need at least a year laid down, presumably to mellow and lose the raw bitterness. More, even:

Two years in wood is what it deserves. Don’t let it down.

But they lose that much, and if so, why brew with so much to begin with?

 

[InspectorJon]

Another possibility is that it just tasted bad by our modern/current sensibilities. I travel to Southeast Asia quite a bit. There are flavors and textures there that most westerners don’t enjoy and are very popular with the locals. We might not like what they did. Some folks don’t like hazy IPAs. Go figure.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Another possibility is that it just tasted bad by our modern/current sensibilities. I travel to Southeast Asia quite a bit. There are flavors and textures there that most westerners don’t enjoy and are very popular with the locals. We might not like what they did. Some folks don’t like hazy IPAs. Go figure.

Yep, right, that's what I'm wondering. Just whether they find what to us would be like downing gentian bitters was to them a pleasurable pint.

 

[sibelman]

I wonder whether any 19th century tasting notes survive. It may not be realistic to try to infer what their beer was like to those folks, but maybe we can tell what it is like to us, if we can convince ourselves that we've brewed it. Seems epistemologically dubious.

I recently brewed a beer based on a recipe for 1890 Truman porter. The result is meh - a bit sour with an alcohol finish. The original might have been rather different; or maybe they liked that back then.

 

[HM-2]

I wonder on what basis the 146 IBU is actually calculated or extrapolated. It's not like IBUs existed as a measure, and we have little evidence of the alpha acid percentages of hops 150 years ago.

I don't know a huge amount about how hops were processed in Victorian times but even today you can get batches of EKG in industrially produced and pretty uniform pelletised form with AA% in the low threes of even high twos (I've got some at ~2.8% in my fridge).

 

[McMullan]

It's not just a sensory threshold. There is also the saturation point of iso-alpha acids which is around 110.

Not only that, but the extraction rate of AAs is inversely proportional to wort AA concentration. Why adding all bittering hops to the last 10 minutes works too. Difficult to predict and best determined empirically by our sophisticated taste circuitry.

 

[gunhaus]

In Michael Dawson's book Mashmaker he includes a recipe from an 1871 document that states the specs for an IPA for the colonies. Dawson suggested that if you were feeling adventurous and authentic double the amount of boil and dry hops and age it a year. The original Dawson version is 70+ IBU so double the hops and you get a theoretical of ________ ANYWAY, a bit over three years ago with all that forced free time that was available, we brewed it up in the double things version. After the recipe prescribed ten days fermentation we put this in a keg laid on its side to naturally carb and to eventually be served as a redneck cask ( The old corny on its side as a cask works just fine since I have no interest in buying a pin or firkin!)

Just for fun, since we know there are plenty of records of beers like this being stored in the yards of breweries for up to a year - AND because we know they at least were going to be cellared for a period then shipped around the Horn, we decided to leave the thing at the varying temps and conditions in the unheated storage area of the shop (Temps will vary from upper 30's to low 70's over a year. We also moved the thing around the room from time to time in the interest of "imitating" the inevitable jostlings such a thing would get. After a year we tapped and enjoyed. I do not know how it compares to the beers of the day, 1871 was a year or three before I was born - but I DO know this was a very good and very interesting beer. It WAS bitter. But not at all unpleasantly so. I would describe it as more "mineral" in nature rather than bitey or acidic. There was a lot of malt character, and fairly pronounced esters as one expects in an English Ale. The beer was VERY clear, almost sparklingly so - Which I think played tricks on your mind a little- The LOOK of the beer made you expect dry-crisp-sharp - and it was not. It was more muted, mellow, smooth, mineral, etc.

Anyway, I liked it well enough we brewed it again Yesterday. So remind me next New Years Eve and i will post a picture.

 

[sibelman]

best determined empirically

This.

a very good and very interesting beer. It WAS bitter. But not at all unpleasantly so. I would describe it as more "mineral" in nature rather than bitey or acidic. There was a lot of malt character, and fairly pronounced esters as one expects in an English Ale.

...and this. Just brew it.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks guys - moved to my other thread so as not to hijack further.

 

[HM-2]

Getting there...at least, pretty clear given the circumstances.

6 gallon batch
8oz whirlpool
4oz dry hop
Soft crashed for 2 days
Zero filtration
Zero fining
Packaged and on tap since...Sunday or Monday?

 

[Group W]

Getting there...at least, pretty clear given the circumstances.

6 gallon batch
8oz whirlpool
4oz dry hop
Soft crashed for 2 days
Zero filtration
Zero fining
Packaged and on tap since...Sunday or Monday?

Looks great with a little color. My next beer is a classic WCIPA with 4.8% C40.

 

[Bassman2003]

That is as clear as I expect WCIPA to be given the amount of dry hops. It does not have to be pilsner level clarity for me to be happy.

 

[HM-2]

Looks great with a little color. My next beer is a classic WCIPA with 4.8% C40.

84% Czech Pilsen
6% Munich II
4% Dextrose
4% English Caramalt
2% T50

1.084 OG
1.014 FG

9.2%
75 IBU

 

[Group W]

84% Czech Pilsen
6% Munich II
4% Dextrose
4% English Caramalt
2% T50

1.084 OG
1.014 FG

9.2%
75 IBU

Nice. What’s T50?

 

[HM-2]

Nice. What’s T50?

50L/130EBC British crystal.

 

[Alan Reginato]

What's an IPA nowdays?

If you go to a bar and order an IPA, what will be in your glass?

Here, probably an American IPA, with fruit/citrus notes on a caramel background. A local brand had to label their traditional IPA as "English IPA", to avoid confusing customers.

In USA, a NEIPA perhaps?

That's a mess, why is everything with high IBUs is labeled as IPA? We need, urgently, a new international naming system.

 

[day_trippr]

Someone needs a binky

 

[Alan Reginato]

Someone needs a binky

Yes, with sweetened tropical fruit juice, because otherwise I can't stand it's bitterness.

 

[Brooothru]

Yes, with sweetened tropical fruit juice, because otherwise I can't stand it's bitterness.

I'm a bit hazy on the point being made.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm a bit hazy on the point being made.

I see what you did there.

 

[HM-2]

I think this has cleared as much as it's going to now.

Still full-on amazed it cleared as much as it did given it had probably 14 ounces of hops in a 6 gal batch.

 

[Nagorg]

I think this has cleared as much as it's going to now.

So clear you can see all the nucleation sites!

 

[McMullan]

Beer goes bright by default really. The hazy fanboys have to work at messing things up.

 

[HM-2]

So clear you can see all the nucleation sites!

You can, I didn't really clock that when I took.the picture but it does look rather weird!

 

[Nagorg]

The hazy fanboys have to work at messing things up.

And since its been a while and this thread has grown a bit, I don't take issue from reduced clarity from things like a big dry hop or some chill haze. Its the completely opaque look (and taste) of OJ that raises my hackle's when labeled IPA.

 

[HM-2]

Much to my surprise, the WC DIPA got even clearer.

Maybe I'll try even more hope next time?

 

[Drunken Monkey]

I can’t stand IPA’s. It’s a millennial fad that’s going away thank god !

The process was done that way back in the days for preservation purposes. So, something better than nothing. But, by today’s standards it’s trash ! And, a fad it seems just like wine coolers of the 80’s.

 

[day_trippr]

 

[PCABrewing]

I can’t stand IPA’s. It’s a millennial fad that’s going away thank god !

The process was done that way back in the days for preservation purposes.

Perhaps you should read the introductory paragraph to the IPA section in the BJCP guidelines.
It clarifies there is a distinction made between IPA and India Pale Ale.

 

[day_trippr]

Aww - where's the fun in that?

 

[InspectorJon]

This thread is 5 years old, the hazy style has persisted for what, 10 years now? American IPA since the 1990s. It does seem to be going away rather slowly. Always been useful for a good rant though.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm willing to believe the perps were just having fun

 

[NeoBrew]

This thread is 5 years old, the hazy style has persisted for what, 10 years now? American IPA since the 1990s. It does seem to be going away rather slowly. Always been useful for a good rant though.

Just for the record, Hazy is not an IPA or an American Pale Ale.