Main breaker location...why?

[jeeppilot]

I’m getting ready to install a 30 amp GFCI breaker in my main panel and am uncertain about this setup. See picture below. There is empty space to mount additional breakers ABOVE the main breaker.

Why was the panel built with the main breakers not at the top? Does it matter? Is there anything in NEC that forbids installing the GFCI above the main breaker? If I were to move the main breaker up, I assume shutting off the breaker is insufficient to do it safely and I should call my utility to shut off supply power?

 

[matt_m]

Does the cover have knockouts above?

Also, look up the panel and see how many circuits its rated for. I could be looking at it wrong, but it looks like there might be a couple unused breakers in there. You might be able to rearrange things a little, get rid of that full size 20 and put something like this in the panel. https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Q220...ocphy=9016889&hvtargid=pla-349297341520&psc=1

You'd need a GFCI downstream still but could use a spa panel.

 

[jeeppilot]

Does the cover have knockouts above?

Also, look up the panel and see how many circuits its rated for. I could be looking at it wrong, but it looks like there might be a couple unused breakers in there. You might be able to rearrange things a little, get rid of that full size 20 and put something like this in the panel. https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Q220...ocphy=9016889&hvtargid=pla-349297341520&psc=1

You'd need a GFCI downstream still but could use a spa panel.

The panel does have knockouts and is rated for 40 circuits. I count 27 poles not including the 100 amp breaker servicing the air conditioner sub panel and the main breaker.

I could replace the full size one, and another two 20s with the half size breakers, but depending on how hard it is to get my utility to shut off the power for 5 minutes, I could just move the main up. That is, if there is even reason to, which would only be for code, I think.

 

[Bobby_M]

They probably cut the line wires a touch too short and moved the breaker down to match. I dont know the NEC well enough but I cant imagine why branch breakers couldnt go above the main. Electrically they are all downstream.

 

[InspectorJon]

That main breaker feeds current to the bus bars. If you shut it off you will shut of power to the bars and all the breakers. The wires feeding the main breaker will still be hot as well as the large Allen wrench lugs holding those feed wires to the main breaker.

I don’t want to sound like a smart ass but as an inspector I see well meaning people do foolish things all the time. If you don’t know enough about electric wiring to know the answers to the questions you asked maybe you should have an electrician do the work, or at least look it over for you when you are done.

 

[jeeppilot]

That main breaker feeds current to the bus bars. If you shut it of you will shut of power to the bars and all the breakers. The wires feeding the main breaker will still be hot as well as the large Allen wrench lugs holding those feed wires to the main breaker.

I don’t want to sound like a smart ass but as an inspector I see well meaning people do foolish things all the time. If you don’t know enough about electric wiring to know the answer to the questions you asked maybe you should have an electrician do the work, or at least look it over for you when you are done.

I believe my main question was not written clearly, and while my last question was admittedly a total softball, you also didn’t answer any of my other questions. Perhaps as an inspector you aren’t able to as to limit your liability on a forum such as this. In that case, I wonder why any response?

I’m simply trying to understand if there is anything in the NEC that prohibits me from installing a branch circuit breaker above the main breaker. In my mind it should not matter as the the entire bus is hot so any location on the bus would be the same. That said, I’m not an electrician or an inspector and as such have not seen very many electrical panels. I have certainly not seen one setup like mine. I do not know the NEC. I do plan to have a qualified electrician look over all my work when I am finished.

 

[InspectorJon]

No reason not to install other breakers above the main. The setup you have is uncommon, at least in my location. A panel that is more commonly used as a sub panel has been put into service as a main panel. That is an acceptable practice as long as it is done correctly. Things are often done differently in different parts of the country so what is uncommon here may be normal where you are.

 

[bgmac]

Technically a main breaker isn't even required. My panel doesn't have one (split bus with one double pole breaker feeding the lower half, it SUX!). Upper bus bars are always hot. The only way to secure power to the upper bars in my house is to pull the meter. You at least have the ability to open power to the bars. I wouldn't hesitate to put a breaker above the main as long as there are knock out slots that line up on the open spots that you have. My box was full and I had to install a sub panel to add a circuit for electric brewing and move my dryer to the sub so I could install the sub breaker. Consider yourself lucky that you have that much open space. Just be careful around the main legs at the breaker since they are always hot, unless you have a disconnect box on the side of your house. I would put a piece of electrical tape over the gaps where the allen head lugs are to help avoid accidentally touching when pulling your new wire. Wish I had an outside disconnect but the meter is mounted directly to the back of the panel on the outside so no room for a disconnect box at my house.

As far as Code, you could always pull the breaker above the main and put in a couple of plastic knock out covers if/when you decide to sell your house. Not saying a breaker above the main is out of code, just makes it that you don't have to worry about a house inspector that says its not in code. Doesn't mean the inspector is right, they mis-quote electrical code all the time. That's my plan with my sub panel. Then you will have the breaker and wire for your new place.

 

[jeeppilot]

Technically a main breaker isn't even required. My panel doesn't have one (split bus with one double pole breaker feeding the lower half, it SUX!). Upper bus bars are always hot. The only way to secure power to the upper bars in my house is to pull the meter. You at least have the ability to open power to the bars. I wouldn't hesitate to put a breaker above the main as long as there are knock out slots that line up on the open spots that you have. My box was full and I had to install a sub panel to add a circuit for electric brewing and move my dryer to the sub so I could install the sub breaker. Consider yourself lucky that you have that much open space. Just be careful around the main legs at the breaker since they are always hot, unless you have a disconnect box on the side of your house. I would put a piece of electrical tape over the gaps where the allen head lugs are to help avoid accidentally touching when pulling your new wire. Wish I had an outside disconnect but the meter is mounted directly to the back of the panel on the outside so no room for a disconnect box at my house.

As far as Code, you could always pull the breaker above the main and put in a couple of plastic knock out covers if/when you decide to sell your house. Not saying a breaker above the main is out of code, just makes it that you don't have to worry about a house inspector that says its not in code. Doesn't mean the inspector is right, they mis-quote electrical code all the time. That's my plan with my sub panel. Then you will have the breaker and wire for your new place.

Much like the weather, if you don’t like the code, just a wait a couple years! I don’t intend to move anytime soon, so adhering to code for me is really more about meeting the latest safety standards. The next time an inspector is here, it’ll likely be because I had to replace the panel entirely. But you make a good point.

 

[Bobby_M]

No reason not to install other breakers above the main. The setup you have is uncommon, at least in my location. A panel that is more commonly used as a sub panel has been put into service as a main panel. That is an acceptable practice as long as it is done correctly. Things are often done differently in different parts of the country so what is uncommon here may be normal where you are.

Technically a main breaker isn't even required. My panel doesn't have one (split bus with one double pole breaker feeding the lower half, it SUX!). Upper bus bars are always hot. The only way to secure power to the upper bars in my house is to pull the meter. You at least have the ability to open power to the bars. I wouldn't hesitate to put a breaker above the main as long as there are knock out slots that line up on the open spots that you have. My box was full and I had to install a sub panel to add a circuit for electric brewing and move my dryer to the sub so I could install the sub breaker. Consider yourself lucky that you have that much open space. Just be careful around the main legs at the breaker since they are always hot, unless you have a disconnect box on the side of your house. I would put a piece of electrical tape over the gaps where the allen head lugs are to help avoid accidentally touching when pulling your new wire. Wish I had an outside disconnect but the meter is mounted directly to the back of the panel on the outside so no room for a disconnect box at my house.

As far as Code, you could always pull the breaker above the main and put in a couple of plastic knock out covers if/when you decide to sell your house. Not saying a breaker above the main is out of code, just makes it that you don't have to worry about a house inspector that says its not in code. Doesn't mean the inspector is right, they mis-quote electrical code all the time. That's my plan with my sub panel. Then you will have the breaker and wire for your new place.

I've had an inspectors try to fail me before until I asked to see the section of NEC that specifically said I couldn't do that particular thing. He showed me something that was completely unrelated to the topic, we chatted about it and he agreed. NEC is like building code. It prescribes limits and prohibits. If it's not listed, it's allowed.