Low Enzymatic/Cold Mash/Low alcohol beer

[seatazzz]

I'm intrigued by this as well. I'd like to brew a really low ABV blonde for my dad; a former alcoholic and alzheimer's patient, he really loves the taste of beer and misses it.

Thinking of the hops; wouldn't it work if you created a hop "tea" and added it late in the short boil, to possibly avoid the grassy/burnt/icky hop flavor? Something clean like Cascade or maybe some Chinook to give it some zing. I might be trying this on my next grain purchase.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm intrigued by this as well. I'd like to brew a really low ABV blonde for my dad; a former alcoholic and alzheimer's patient, he really loves the taste of beer and misses it.

Cold extraction may not be the right process for brewing a traditional tasting low ABV beer. From slide 2 of the PNWHC17 presentation:

Why do this?

... new malt flavors!!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The v1 sample, did a mash hop on this one, was nasty. A weird burnt hop flavor (used EKG), burnt grass flavor.

Thinking of the hops; wouldn't it work if you created a hop "tea" and added it late in the short boil, to possibly avoid the grassy/burnt/icky hop flavor? Something clean like Cascade or maybe some Chinook to give it some zing. I might be trying this on my next grain purchase.

EKG is often considered to be a "clean" bittering hops.

FWIW, I've used EKG a couple of times with cold extraction batches and didn't get grassy/burnt hop flavor.

 

[beersk]

My samples tonight were not good. The v1 sample, did a mash hop on this one, was nasty. A weird burnt hop flavor (used EKG), burnt grass flavor. Ugh

Worse still, the v2 sample, which I did the full mash and then a proper boil with tettnang hops, also had the burnt grass flavor although not as strong as v1. The aroma was more than off putting.

Both were in the same bathroom that was ~69F during the day, and dropped at night along with the ambient temp.

Any trouble shooting thoughts? I dumped v1, and highly doubt v2 will age into something tolerable.

Did you notice any burnt material to the bottom of the kettle while cleaning? I had to stir while it was heating because I noticed some stuff wanting to stick to the bottom (which would have burned). I'm guessing it was starches.

Also, maybe these lower gravity beers are more sensitive to fermentation temperatures. Maybe 69F was too high?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

FWIW, Bell General Store has a kit (instructions are online) for Bell's new "Light Hearted" IPA.

I find "cold extraction" to be an interesting technique - but with the focus on process and on new / different flavors. But, ...

... honestly, if I were looking to brew classic, yet tasty, 3.5%-ish beers without a lot of effort, I'd be looking in places other than "cold extraction".

edit: link to related topic: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/low-abv-ipa-ish-style-beer-thoughts.675409/

 

[kmarkstevens]

Did you notice any burnt material to the bottom of the kettle while cleaning? I had to stir while it was heating because I noticed some stuff wanting to stick to the bottom (which would have burned). I'm guessing it was starches.

Any???There was a ton. That will learn me to not sample the wort when pitching the yeast.

I scorched both methods. The bottom of my brewers edge had a thick layer I'm still trying to clean off completely. Also had to soak and clean out the sous vide.

Will try again. I guess I'll have to just constantly stir the pot for both the mash and the hop boil.

@beersk How is your test coming along?

@BrewnWKopperKat If you want a 2-3.5%, then I wouldn't try this method either! Here's a wealth of information on sub 1030 beers: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/sub-1-030-beers.378450/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I scorched both methods. The bottom of my brewers edge had a thick layer I'm still trying to clean off completely. Also had to soak and clean out the sous vide.

FWIW, the pictures associated with the PNWHC17 presentation show traditional equipment (see p 9, ...), probably with false bottoms and most of the process diagrams include a Lautering step.

 

[beersk]

Any???There was a ton. That will learn me to not sample the wort when pitching the yeast.

I scorched both methods. The bottom of my brewers edge had a thick layer I'm still trying to clean off completely. Also had to soak and clean out the sous vide.

Will try again. I guess I'll have to just constantly stir the pot for both the mash and the hop boil.

@beersk How is your test coming along?

@BrewnWKopperKat If you want a 2-3.5%, then I wouldn't try this method either! Here's a wealth of information on sub 1030 beers: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/sub-1-030-beers.378450/

Man, that sucks. I haven't tried mine cold and carbonated yet. Planning to sample this weekend.

@BrewnWKopperKat I'm not sure that traditional lautering really applies to this method as it is nearly impossible to get clear wort from the mash. I think this starch scorching or sticking to the bottom of the kettle is just something one has to deal with in this method.

 

[bierhaus15]

A better process for very low ABV beers (0.5%) is via arrested fermentation. This process preserves much of the hop and malt character of beer and is the same way many breweries make NA without expensive alcohol filtration systems.

In short, you brew a 1.030 beer of any style you want - dark beers and ipa's seem to work best - and ferment the beer with a non-sulfur and low diacetyl forming lager yeast at very cold temps, around 38F. When the ABV reaches 1.0-2.0%, you cold crash the beer and stop the fermentation. The yeast is removed (finings) and the beer is blended with deaerated water to 0.5% or whatever ABV you want.

I've done the following to make 0.5-1.0% ABV hoppy lagers and they are better than the commercial stuff. I recommend fermenting in a corney keg (short diptube) and you can then easily transfer into another keg with DA water to fine and carbonate. There are other details that help, but that's the basic process.

 

[Vale71]

When the ABV reaches 1.0-2.0%, you cold crash the beer and stop the fermentation. The yeast is removed (finings)

Low temperatures NEVER stop fermentation, they only slow it down and finings don't even get close to completely removing yeast. The only sure way to avoid issues from severe gushing up to bottle bombs is filtration followed by pasteurization (at best bottle pasteurization as partially fermented beer has very low microbiological stability) which are techniques that are well beyond the reach of most if not all homebrewers.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Low temperatures NEVER stop fermentation, they only slow it down and finings don't even get close to completely removing yeast. The only sure way to avoid issues from severe gushing up to bottle bombs is filtration followed by pasteurization (at best bottle pasteurization as partially fermented beer has very low microbiological stability) which are techniques that are well beyond the reach of most if not all homebrewers.

His process obviously can't be applied to bottled beers.

 

[Vale71]

His process obviously can't be applied to bottled beers.

Not to kegged beers either. While it's true that you can vent excess pressure from a keg to prevent explosion this will not void the other effects of continued fermentation, such as attenuation and ABV increasing all the way to full attenuation. His claim that the beer is stable when processed in the way he describes is therefore still completely false.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hold on chief, let's look at some additional facts.
Since you like to play the semantics game, he never said the beer was "stable". Also remember we're dealing with home brewing; the keg won't be sitting at room temp. Cold temperature drastically slows fermentation so further attenuation likely won't be an issue in the timeframe that the beer is consumed.

This method of temporary cold stabilization is also used by some cider makers who want a sweet lightly sparkling cider without the effort of pasteurization or fining + chemical stabilization + force carbonation.

Also consider the numbers.
If a 1.030 beer is fermented to 2% ABV, that's a s.g. of 1.015. dilute that to 0.5% ABV and you get 1.004, of which only 0.002 is still fermentable. 1-2 extra volumes won't cause a chilled keg to explode, right? Or is that "completely false" too?

 

[bierhaus15]

^^ Yep.

Not to kegged beers either. While it's true that you can vent excess pressure from a keg to prevent explosion this will not void the other effects of continued fermentation, such as attenuation and ABV increasing all the way to full attenuation. His claim that the beer is stable when processed in the way he describes is therefore still completely false.

And while this is not an ideal process, I can assure you there are micro brewers that are doing this same process without ANY pastuerization. And what's more, you can buy those products in cans. That sit on the shelf! Amazing.

 

[Vale71]

^^ Yep.



And while this is not an ideal process, I can assure you there are micro brewers that are doing this same process without ANY pastuerization. And what's more, you can buy those products in cans. That sit on the shelf! Amazing.

Sorry but I have to call bullcrap on that. Without any stabilization those cans won't last long stored at room temperature, period.

 

[Vale71]

Hold on chief, let's look at some additional facts.
Since you like to play the semantics game, he never said the beer was "stable". Also remember we're dealing with home brewing; the keg won't be sitting at room temp. Cold temperature drastically slows fermentation so further attenuation likely won't be an issue in the timeframe that the beer is consumed.

This method of temporary cold stabilization is also used by some cider makers who want a sweet lightly sparkling cider without the effort of pasteurization or fining + chemical stabilization + force carbonation.

Also consider the numbers.
If a 1.030 beer is fermented to 2% ABV, that's a s.g. of 1.015. dilute that to 0.5% ABV and you get 1.004, of which only 0.002 is still fermentable. 1-2 extra volumes won't cause a chilled keg to explode, right? Or is that "completely false" too?

I was addressing the general claim that "fermentation is stopped" and that finings "remove the yeast" which are of course total nonsense. Of course if you let the beer reach significant attenuation and then dilute that with 4-5 parts water to 1 part beer continued fermentation won't affect the resulting beverage much. This will become however completely irrelevant as said beverage will taste so awful (like heavily watered-down, partially fermented beer as a matter of fact) that nobody will care to drink it anyway. As for storing the beer so cold that fermentation will slow down, he proposed fermenting at 38°F. Unless you serve your beers colder than that you will have to warm the keg up sometime prior to tapping it and how is that going to do anything but accelerate fermentation?

While partial fermentation has been extensively tried in commercial operations this is always done with proper stabilization prior to packaging. This has also been largely abandoned as the resulting beverage tastes exactly like partially fermented beer, which is not that great after all.

P.S. As for him never saying that the beer was "stable" then what did he mean when he claimed that he could stop fermentation and remove yeast? Who's playing the semantics game now, chief?

 

[bierhaus15]

Again, this is a home brewing forum where people are largely making beer with plastic buckets. Obviously my previous 50 word post didn't get into the nitty-gritty details of the whole process. Thanks for pointing that out though. Wouldn't want a person who is making NA beer in their basement with toilet parts to think their beer was completely shelf stable!

And if you have a better method for making home brewed NA beer that doesn't involve crossflow filtration technology, do go ahead and share that info with everyone.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I was addressing the general claim that "fermentation is stopped" and that finings "remove the yeast" which are of course total nonsense.

Your point is taken, however a guy over in the cider forum has successfully stabilized ciders solely by cold crashing and racking (repeatedly), so it's not impossible.
The point also stands that the beer is plenty stable enough to keg. His method is valid for the purpose at hand. However I think a high flocculation low attenuation ale strain like WLP002 is way better suited for that method. I would almost guarantee that once you crash and rack that it wouldn't start again.

I agree commercial beers need some kind of chemical/mechanical/thermal stabilization beyond cold crash.


Back on topic...

I'm not sure that traditional lautering really applies to this method as it is nearly impossible to get clear wort from the mash. I think this starch scorching or sticking to the bottom of the kettle is just something one has to deal with in this method.

I'm a little curious about this statement. It's unclear to me (no pun intended) exactly what lautering method you used. I'm thinking you didn't use a traditional mash tun with extensive vourlaufing or recirculation, right?

 

[Vale71]

Wouldn't want a person who is making NA beer in their basement with toilet parts to think their beer was completely shelf stable!

Yes, we wouldn't want that as this could result in something blowing up in their face and possibly causing serious injury...

I would also like to know where you think somebody making beer with toilet parts is going to get de-aerated water for post-fermentation dilution?

 

[Vale71]

And if you have a better method for making home brewed NA beer that doesn't involve crossflow filtration technology, do go ahead and share that info with everyone.

At the risk of going too much off topic I'll bite.

Buy yourself a Unitank. Any one of the currently availbale models is fine as long as it is pressure-capable and has some form of temperature control (either jacket or coil).

Brew your beer as you normally would (adjustments such as lower IBUs and more Caramalts to compensate for lack of alcohol will have to be implemented by trial-and-error) but only spund to minimal pressure (say 0.1 bar) at the end.

When the beer is fully fermented and conditioned (then and only then as this process WILL kill the yeast and stop maturation) switch from cooling to heating the fermenter by circulating 90°C water instead of glycol. Slowly increase the temperature to about 84-85°C while leaving the spunding valve set to minimal pressurization. Temp increase should be slow to avoid CO2 being released too violently possibly leading to excessive foaming. At the target temperature CO2 solubility will be almost zero so almost all of the dissolved CO2 will be released through the spunding valve while at the same time preventing any oxygen ingress.

Hold target temperature while regularly taking samples and measuring FG. To avoid excessive losses it's best to use a refractometer. As alcohol evaporates redings will steadily increase (with a hydrometer) or decrease (with a refractometer). Once the reading has been stable long enough (drawing a graph can help detect an asymptotic condition) turn off heating and start cooling rapidly while applying pressure with a CO2 bottle to prevent implosion.

The resulting NA beer will have to be force carbed once fully cooled as carbonation will be nearly zero at the end of the process.

This process will have the added advantage of pasteurizing the beer thus compensating for the reduction in stability resulting from alcohol removal.

It's not something you can do with plastic buckets but it's certainly withing the reach of advanced homebrewer who might even already be working with Unitank-style fermenters.

 

[beersk]

I'm a little curious about this statement. It's unclear to me (no pun intended) exactly what lautering method you used. I'm thinking you didn't use a traditional mash tun with extensive vourlaufing or recirculation, right?

I'm just saying that I think no matter how much you vorlauf/recirculate, you're still going to end up with all of those unconverted starches in the kettle that will eventually want to stick to the bottom or scorch. Or it'll stick to a heating element and probably definitely scorch.

 

[bierhaus15]

Not looking to start another yelling match, but the distillation method for NA beer production has long been replaced by both filtration and arrested fementation methods.The flavor is much better, especially for hoppier beers, and you don't suffer the myriad of issues from heating a beer for an extended period of time. It also requires no specialized equipment other than corney kegs.The hardest bit is diluting with deaerated water and that can be achieved via boiling and/or force carbonating and degassing water in a corney keg. For those who enjoy a challenge and don't want to invest $$, the afore arrested fermentation method is easy to do and produces a beer that is better than most commercially available NA products. Package stability is not an issue if the kegs/package are kept cold and drunk within a reasonable time frame. Now if I was to drink NA beer regularly, I'd just pay the $$ and buy those beers produced via micro/crossflow filtration.

 

[beersk]

Not looking to start another yelling match, but the distillation method for NA beer production has long been replaced by both filtration and arrested fementation methods.The flavor is much better, especially for hoppier beers, and you don't suffer the myriad of issues from heating a beer for an extended period of time. It also requires no specialized equipment other than corney kegs.The hardest bit is diluting with deaerated water and that can be achieved via boiling and/or force carbonating and degassing water in a corney keg. For those who enjoy a challenge and don't want to invest $$, the afore arrested fermentation method is easy to do and produces a beer that is better than most commercially available NA products. Package stability is not an issue if the kegs/package are kept cold and drunk within a reasonable time frame. Now if I was to drink NA beer regularly, I'd just pay the $$ and buy those beers produced via micro/crossflow filtration.

Is this how Clausthaler is made? Because that stuff tastes like wort. It's gross and does not taste like beer. I'm pretty sure Weihenstephaner (And probably Bitburger as well) is using a reverse osmosis type method to remove the alcohol because I bought a six pack of their hefeweizen alkoholfrei and it was fantastic. Tasted remarkably similar to the regular hefeweizen.

 

[bierhaus15]

Weihenstephaner uses RO and it is definitely one of the better NA's available. Some others use a combination of low alcohol producing yeasts, RO, vacuum distillation and/or AF. Typically the Scandinavian brewers use AF and Germans RO. Both can taste equally terrible and/or drinkable, really depends how much $$ one wants to spend on the equipment. Germany is the biggest market for NA beer and more resources are put towards that. AF is by no means the best method for making NA beers, it just happens to be the best for home brewers and smaller breweries.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... I'm not sure that traditional lautering really applies to this method as it is nearly impossible to get clear wort from the mash. I think this starch scorching or sticking to the bottom of the kettle is just something one has to deal with in this method.

FWIW, I've done 5-ish batches using "cold extraction". The flavors in the wort/beer were "more intense" than what I would have expected from the same malts in a more traditional process. But there was never what I would describe as a "burnt" flavor.

 

[beersk]

FWIW, I've done 5-ish batches using "cold extraction". The flavors in the wort/beer were "more intense" than what I would have expected from the same malts in a more traditional process. But there was never what I would describe as a "burnt" flavor.

That's good. Samples of mine don't have this burnt flavor either. Whether it's full flavored enough, I still don't know.

 

[kmarkstevens]

FWIW, I've done 5-ish batches using "cold extraction". The flavors in the wort/beer were "more intense" than what I would have expected from the same malts in a more traditional process. But there was never what I would describe as a "burnt" flavor.

Thanks. Given the flavors were "more intense", did you also test diluting with additional water?

And "more intense" in a good way or a hold your nose bad way?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks. Given the flavors were "more intense", did you also test diluting with additional water?

No.

And "more intense" in a good way or a hold your nose bad way?

Currently, with this process, I'm "observing", not "evaluating" - I am more interested in finding common ingredients that describe the flavors.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Thanks. Definitely need to watch the scorching. I'm dumping out the second try. I can only describe it as burnt rotten vegetable, and not in a good way.

v3 goes in the fridge tomorrow morning. Will be careful to stir both the mash and the boil....

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Will be careful to stir both the mash and the boil...

again, FWIW, constant stirring is not part of my equipment / process.

 

[beersk]

Thanks. Definitely need to watch the scorching. I'm dumping out the second try. I can only describe it as burnt rotten vegetable, and not in a good way.

v3 goes in the fridge tomorrow morning. Will be careful to stir both the mash and the boil....

I don't think being careful to stir in the mash is something you need to concern yourself with. Just making sure you stir and scrape up the stuff from the bottom of the kettle while it's heating is really all you need to do. Once it's to conversion temperatures, that sticky starch will turn into sugars and the wort will clear up.

 

[beersk]

Just took my first sample tonight of the Vienna Lager I did and, wow, is it ... Good! At 1.5% abv, I really am amazed. It's a very nice grainy/malty aroma, full body, great flavor, and awesome head retention/lacing. Definitely going to be doing more of this.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@beersk If you don't mind sharing, what was your recipe?

I'm steeping overnight 3# of 2-row and 1# wheat + ~2 gallons water for a total volume of 2.5 gallons. Will mash tomorrow and watch the scorching...

 

[beersk]

My recipe was, for a 3.5 gallon batch:

2.5lbs each, Munich, Vienna, Pilsner
1oz Carafa III
1/2oz Mt. Hood 30 min FWH
1/2oz Mt. Hood 5 min
Global L13 lager yeast fermented at 55F

I really like the beer a lot. Next time, though, I want to add some caramunich or medium crystal to add a tad more sweetness. It's pretty dry. But otherwise a real surprise how it turned out. I'm planning to do a pilsner tonight/tomorrow.


3.5 gallon batch

6lbs Pilsner
12oz Vienna
4oz Carahell
1/2oz Mt. Hood 30 min FWH
1oz Mt. Hood 10 min
Global L13 yeast

Wondering if I should bump up the carahell to 1/2lb on this. Soon after I do some more experimenting with this I plan to jump up to 5 gallon batches as this Vienna lager isn't going to last long. Great thing is I can start drinking bigger pours now. Whereas before I had started to drink 8-10oz pours. A 5 gallon batch lasts way too long at that rate and I hate having to be careful how much I drink. It's just no fun.

 

[ba-brewer]

My recipe was, for a 3.5 gallon batch:

2.5lbs each, Munich, Vienna, Pilsner
1oz Carafa III
1/2oz Mt. Hood 30 min FWH
1/2oz Mt. Hood 5 min
Global L13 lager yeast fermented at 55F

I really like the beer a lot. Next time, though, I want to add some caramunich or medium crystal to add a tad more sweetness. It's pretty dry. But otherwise a real surprise how it turned out. I'm planning to do a pilsner tonight/tomorrow.


3.5 gallon batch

6lbs Pilsner
12oz Vienna
4oz Carahell
1/2oz Mt. Hood 30 min FWH
1oz Mt. Hood 10 min
Global L13 yeast

Wondering if I should bump up the carahell to 1/2lb on this. Soon after I do some more experimenting with this I plan to jump up to 5 gallon batches as this Vienna lager isn't going to last long. Great thing is I can start drinking bigger pours now. Whereas before I had started to drink 8-10oz pours. A 5 gallon batch lasts way too long at that rate and I hate having to be careful how much I drink. It's just no fun.

With the lower sugar levels in the wort it seems like you would get a higher bitterness than a beer made with a standard mash process. I wonder if just cutting back on the hops a bit would give a similar result to adding crystal malts.

 

[ba-brewer]

Seen previous posts with scorching being a potential problem, maybe do a double boiler type thing to gently heat the collected running. Thinking like heat up water to mash temp in the HLT or MT then put a smaller pot into the hot water. It will take a bit more time to move the heat into the wort that would be better than burnt wort.

 

[beersk]

With the lower sugar levels in the wort it seems like you would get a higher bitterness than a beer made with a standard mash process. I wonder if just cutting back on the hops a bit would give a similar result to adding crystal malts.

I think it's something that needs balanced on both - less hops and a tad more crystal since the gravity of the wort is so much lower. This Vienna lager is good, but it needs that sweetness. I normally do use some caramunich in my normal 5% abv recipe but I didn't have any and this was just an experiment anyway. But now I'm doing the pilsner hoping the carahell helps this one out.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks @beersk. I entered your recipe into beersmith maybe I will add a little caramunich.

I believe I seen you posted that you did a full volume mash and found the absorption a little higher than normal. Do you remember about what the gal/pound of absorption was?

 

[kmarkstevens]

I managed not to scorch v3. I BIAB and don't have a lauter tun. So, stirred constantly (probably more than neededmuch) as it heated up to around 158F. Cut the heat to very low and covered with a lid. Iodine test said it fully converted.

3# 2 row
1# wheat
5 gram EKG for 30 minutes
total liquid volume around 2.5 gallons when soaking the grains
poured off the liquid, and post boil was not quite 2 gallons.
Will pitch WLP025 in the morning as I've built a starter for another brew
OG = 1010

Wort is very mildly sweet. No burnt taste on this try! Not vegetal either. Letting cool overnight and will pitch the yeast in the morning.

v4 is in the fridge. More of a bitter (and use up leftovers).
2# optic
1# 2 row
1# wheat
2.5 oz UK Crystal 60
4 oz UK crystal 120
5 oz US chocolate
for the boil 5g EKG

 

[beersk]

Thanks @beersk. I entered your recipe into beersmith maybe I will add a little caramunich.

I believe I seen you posted that you did a full volume mash and found the absorption a little higher than normal. Do you remember about what the gal/pound of absorption was?

Hmm well it was 20 qt water for that 7.5lb or whatever it was grainbill and I got about 3.6 gallons in the kettle (I usually shoot for 4 gallons in the kettle for these 2.5 gallon batches). I would just use about a quart or maybe even 2 more quarts than you normally do. Then again, you're only boiling for 30 minutes, so you get less boil off which is fine for the lower volume.