Low efficiency

[s89bunton]

I know this subject has been gone over time and time again. However I would like to get some answers specific to my situation. I've been all grain brewing for several months now. I'm using a 10 gallon cylindrical igloo cooler for my mash tun(see picture). My temps have all been right on. Been using the sparge pal app to get my strike water exactly right. Everything is going smoothly and I like all grain brewing a lot more than extract. However, when calculating my efficiency(using brewers friend.com) I'm getting between 60-70% efficiency and missing my OG by about 10. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. It's been like that for the last 5 batches or so. I thought about upping my base grain but isn't that a short term fix to a long term problem? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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[GrogNerd]

crush is critical. if you can't have your HBS double-crush or can't get your own mill, then the only solution is to tell your brewing software you get 65% efficiency and compensate with more grain

 

[s89bunton]

I explored the mill option. The place I get my grain has a tasting room. He uses the same mill for his grain and gets 75% efficiency(according to him). As far as the software if I type in that I get low efficiency it will automatically add more grain to the recipe? What software do you use?


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[GrogNerd]

I use Beersmith

recipes usually call for 75% efficiency, but I usually get 70%, so I put that in the TOTAL EFFICIENCY box. that will change the ESTIMATED ORIGINAL GRAVITY reading

in the example, it will change the EOG from 1.093 to 1.087. would have to up the grain to get it back to 1.093

in this case, 11 more oz of 2-row will do it

 

[Bryceefisher]

There are several other factors that can be affecting your efficiency. Some common things that helped me raise my efficiency are using a true false bottom instead of some homemade piece, Fly sparging instead of batch sparring, ensuring proper mash pH, calibrated thermometers and getting a good rolling boil to meet expected boil evap. Just my two cents...

 

[patthebrewer]

There are several factors that could be influencing your efficiency, but chief among them is usually crush level. IMHO you will never gain absolute control until you begin crushing your own grain. I'm a personal example of that, when I was having others crush my grain, I couldn't get out of the 60's, now can get in the 90's, but I control my efficiency based upon style and taste. the point is I control it. Mills may be expensive, but they pay for themselves by allowing you to do more with less grain

 

[s89bunton]

This is all good information. I never thought about a true false bottom. Also milling my own grain could be the true answer. I'm loosing my mind over this. Gotta get it figured out.


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[Oceantendency]

What kind of water do you use? Depending on the grain bill and style, some water sources are better than others if you don't treat or add items to your water, which can make an impact, def invest in a double roller mill. Also something to consider is the volume, just a difference in half a gallon on what made it to your fermenter can change what your eff and OG should be. How accurate is your temp gauge and is it the same temp gauge used each time since I don't see a gauge on your tun? Do you always use the same base malt or do you have the same problem with various base malts?

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

s89bunton, I have the same Home Depot mash tun as you with a false bottom. I was getting high 60's for awhile and couldn't figure out why. I batch sparge btw. Everything was spot on. Started getting my grains double crushed and efficiency went up. Get your own mill or ask for a double crush and you'll easily gain 10% probably more.

 

[s89bunton]

I use tap water straight from the facet. It's happened on a few different base malts. As far as thermo goes, I'm using a glass "mercury" style which I've used from the beginning. I tried a probe digital one on my first all grain batch and it worked for about 30 minutes before quitting. I didn't realize it wasn't water proof. I will definitely ask them to double mill my grains on the next batch.


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[Croyzen]

The easy answer is crush. It's obvious. It's simple to say over and over and over every time this issue comes up. The fact is usually when someone comes asking for help after several batches, saying crush is really beating the hell out of the dead horse.

If the process is correct and you're scratching your head the real answer is water. Forget your crush, yes it's important but it's not the problem. Water is. Know your mash pH. Know your water alkalinity. Understand your water as it's the silent killer of efficiency robbing points.

Is your efficiency the same if you make a light pale or a dark stout? I bet it's not. There's your answer (water). Winning.

 

[Yooper]

This is all good information. I never thought about a true false bottom. Also milling my own grain could be the true answer. I'm loosing my mind over this. Gotta get it figured out.


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If you're fly sparging, the manifold is really important. If you're batch sparging, then it is not. If you're fly sparging, you need a "real" false bottom.

One of the things to consider is that most recipes in brewing magazines and articles are set at something like 65-68% efficiency. If you're consistently in that area, I'd suggest calling it good as being consistent at 66% is far better than getting 82% one time and 64% the next.

There is nothing wrong with 66-68% efficiency- just adjust your recipe. In my last set up, I got 68% and that's fine. In the current set up, I get 75%. It's not "better" to get a higher efficiency- it just is what it is.

 

[s89bunton]

Would the amount of wort I get effect my efficiency? On this last batch I got about 8.5 gallons of wort for a 5.5 gallon batch. The recipe called for a 75 minute boil. I use sparge pal to calculate my water temps and amount of water to use. I included a screen shot from this last batch.


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[DesignatedDrinker]

If the process is correct and you're scratching your head the real answer is water. Forget your crush, yes it's important but it's not the problem. Water is.

If your crush is off then your process is not correct tho, which based off of what the OP has said seems like hes just getting the standard that his lhbs does which is usually the middle option to keep everyone happy. I highly doubt water is your problem as much as crush simply because your not milling your own, if you were and you said "im milling real fine and having low efficiency" then water could be the culprit.

There is nothing wrong with 66-68% efficiency- just adjust your recipe. In my last set up, I got 68% and that's fine. In the current set up, I get 75%. It's not "better" to get a higher efficiency- it just is what it is.

Ya you could always add more grain, but then your just spending more money, and who wants to do that! Fix your efficiency deficiency, and save money!

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

Would the amount of wort I get effect my efficiency? On this last batch I got about 8.5 gallons of wort for a 5.5 gallon batch. The recipe called for a 75 minute boil. I use sparge pal to calculate my water temps and amount of water to use. I included a screen shot from this last batch. View attachment 199385


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All depends on your system. My 5 gal setup burns a gal off in 60 min. My 10gal setup burns 2gals off in a hour. If you want to end up with 5.5gal, then you need to know your equipments burn off rate to know how much to collect. No calculator can tell you because every equipment profile is different.

 

[s89bunton]

I calculated for a 10%/hr boil off, which is the calculators default setting. I could change it if I figured it out exactly.


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[DesignatedDrinker]

I calculated for a 10%/hr boil off, which is the calculators default setting. I could change it if I figured it out exactly.


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Ya you can guess all day, but that .25gal loss or gain is a big deal at the end of a boil dont worry about boil off for your next two or three batches, just calculate or guess. Makes notes of those 3 batches and take the average. Then youll have it from there on out.

 

[s89bunton]

If I have my local shop double mill my grain is there any chance that would grind it down too fine?


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[DesignatedDrinker]

If I have my local shop double mill my grain is there any chance that would grind it down too fine?


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Just have them do a quarter pound first and see how it looks. You want to crush the grain to crack it open and break it up a bit. You don't want to powderize it, altho you may get great efficiency by powdering it, it will clog and stop your lautering for sure.

 

[JBOGAN]

If you're fly sparging, the manifold is really important. If you're batch sparging, then it is not. If you're fly sparging, you need a "real" false bottom.

One of the things to consider is that most recipes in brewing magazines and articles are set at something like 65-68% efficiency. If you're consistently in that area, I'd suggest calling it good as being consistent at 66% is far better than getting 82% one time and 64% the next.

There is nothing wrong with 66-68% efficiency- just adjust your recipe. In my last set up, I got 68% and that's fine. In the current set up, I get 75%. It's not "better" to get a higher efficiency- it just is what it is.

I fly sparge with a bazooka screen with great results as do many other people. Never had a stuck sparge(knocks on wood) and my efficiency is usually in the mid to high 60s. Guess you could argue channeling but you would have to be able to see more than a couple inches below the top of the grain bed to see if it is a problem.

 

[Yooper]

I fly sparge with a bazooka screen with great results as do many other people. Never had a stuck sparge(knocks on wood) and my efficiency is usually in the mid to high 60s. Guess you could argue channeling but you would have to be able to see more than a couple inches below the top of the grain bed to see if it is a problem.

Yes, that's fine- but your efficiency is in the mid to high 60s. That of course is fine- but the OP wants a higher efficiency than that. He says he's been up to 70% and it's apparently not good enough.

I think 68% is a fine efficiency, and would be happy to have it. According to Jamil Z, it makes a quality wort. I don't agree with chasing efficiency, but I think consistency is the most important factor. I got 68% with my last set up, each and every time, and that was perfect.

To maximize efficiency, a false bottom and a finer crush (but hopefully not too fine!) would help. But so would water chemistry- it could be that the mash conversion is not optimized here and so even a perfect crush and a perfect manifold and a perfect fly sparge technique wouldn't help.

If the OP is batch sparging, the lautering mechanism doesn't matter. But for continuous (fly) sparging, it does.

I didn't see the sparging method posted anywhere in this thread, so we're really all just guessing. We'd need to hear of the actual mashing and sparging technique before actually being very helpful.

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

He says he's been up to 70% and it's apparently not good enough.



I think 68% is a fine efficiency, and would be happy to have it. According to Jamil Z, it makes a quality wort. I don't agree with chasing efficiency.

15% would also make a quality wort. Efficiency % has no effect on quality of wort because even with a 15% you can add more grain and compensate and still hit the estimated pre boil gravity as if you were estimating based off a 75% efficiency.

If you want to improve your process, your knowledge and your beer, then never settle for what your at, always strive for better. If your cool with 68% more power to you, but thats 32% of the $ you spent on grain going in the trash because it isnt being utilized.

 

[s89bunton]

Just to clarify I'm batch sparging. I would also say my % is pretty consistent. Between 60-70 never fell below. I'm just trying to pick everyone's mind. Trying to improve and always try and do better. I've thought about joining a local club just to get more in depth info. I'd love to sit at my local shop all day and have every question I've ever had answered. I also realize that they have a business to run.


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[GrogNerd]

have to agree with Yoop, perfect efficiency is a white whale

don't think 32% in the trash is accurate. no way any one of us homebrewers would get 100% extraction. not sure I would even want 100%, because you would be extracting more than just sugars.

I would say 85% is "ideal" efficiency. 68% would be 20% inefficiency from there, a loss of $4 worth of grain. I can live with that. commercial brewers dealing with a ton of grain and 1000s of $ probably would want more from their grains, but as a homebrewer? relax, don't worry. read that once, forget where.

I base my recipes on 70% efficiency. if I "only" get 68%, it won't ruin my brew day.

 

[Mad4sax]

I was adjusting my grain amount also and running between 60 - 65%. I would set my software to 60% to get my recipes to what I wanted.
This last batch I decided to double crush my grain through my mill to see if it would help. Gaped my mill with a credit card (I know, flame away ... ).
This batch I got 82%. Way over shooting my target gravity. I am fine with that.
I think I solved my low efficiency. Oh and I also use the orange water cooler for mashing.

 

[GrogNerd]

I was adjusting my grain amount also and running between 60 - 65%. I would set my software to 60% to get my recipes to what I wanted.
This last batch I decided to double crush my grain through my mill to see if it would help. Gaped my mill with a credit card (I know, flame away ... ).
This batch I got 82%. Way over shooting my target gravity. I am fine with that.
I think I solved my low efficiency. Oh and I also use the orange water cooler for mashing.

awesome!

and, hopefully, no stuck sparge? = double awesome

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

This last batch I decided to double crush my grain through my mill to see if it would help. Gaped my mill with a credit card (I know, flame away ... ).
This batch I got 82%. Way over shooting my target gravity. I am fine with that.
I think I solved my low efficiency. Oh and I also use the orange water cooler for mashing.

Bingo!

 

[s89bunton]

I was adjusting my grain amount also and running between 60 - 65%. I would set my software to 60% to get my recipes to what I wanted.
This last batch I decided to double crush my grain through my mill to see if it would help. Gaped my mill with a credit card (I know, flame away ... ).
This batch I got 82%. Way over shooting my target gravity. I am fine with that.
I think I solved my low efficiency. Oh and I also use the orange water cooler for mashing.

That sounds like it could be the problem. I think before I up the grain I'm gonna try the double mill. I'll also check the Ph of my water. If that doesn't work the it's back to the drawing board I guess but at least I can rule those two out


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[dobe12]

The easiest first step is crush. Ask your LHBS to double crush next time or better yet, buy your own mill. Since I started milling my own grains, my efficiency has jumped from around 70% to about 85%. And yes I agree that consistency and being able to predict efficiency is really what matters (which I still can pretty easily now).... but, getting a higher efficiency so I can use less grain or brew larger beers is also a big plus for me.

Start with crush and if that doesn't help, then start looking into other possible problems like water pH, etc. It's the main culprit of low efficiency and the easiest to remedy.

 

[PHDrunk]

It's probably the crush, but if you want to look into this systematically, I suggest following the process outlined by Kaiser here:

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

Have the LHBS double crush your grains (and post a pic here if you want). Mash as per usual. Grab a small sample of the first wort to leave your mash tun and put it somewhere to cool to room temp (I usually use the freezer). Collect first runnings. Sparge, and collect your full pre-boil volume. Mix thoroughly and grab a sample of the pre-boil wort. Cool the pre-boil wort as well.

While you're getting up to a boil, add enough room temp water back into the mash tun to hit one of the qts/lb ratios in Table 2, and stir thoroughly. Drain off some of these runnings and measure gravity.

From the re-addition runnings, you can calculate lautering efficiency (see Table 2). From the first runnings gravity you can calculate conversion efficiency (see Table 1). From the pre-boil wort you can get brew-house (total) efficiency. These numbers should reconcile with each other. All the sampling wort can be added back into your kettle during the boil as well so that yield is not effected. Furthermore, if you're really off, you can supplement with DME so that you don't have to adjust your hop schedule on the fly to balance the beer.

Some of these calculations are approximate, but they should give your ball park understanding of your constituent efficiencies. I used this method for ~5 brews in a row to bring my efficiency from 60 to 80 on the most recent batch and I also use the LHBS mill for crushing. Chances are your conversion efficiency is low, pointing to either poor crush, poor mash pH or poor mash temperature. If it's the lautering efficiency, it could be dead space in your tun or your sparging process that's hurting you. Good luck!

 

[GrogNerd]

had to double-check my brew log. my efficiency did jump to almost 80% on my next-to-last brew and it was the first time I have added acid malt to the grist. 2oz (1.3% of grain bill). used Primo water from Wally World, added no minerals.

last brew was 99% smoked wheat, 1% acid malt and got 75%.

can't argue that pH is NOT a factor in efficiency. that acid malt also helped with color problems and hop aroma & flavor

 

[dobe12]

can't argue that pH is NOT a factor in efficiency. that acid malt also helped with color problems and hop aroma & flavor

I don't think anyone is arguing that at all. The main point that keeps being echoed is that crush is the main culprit in low efficiency (not the only culprit) and the easiest to diagnose and remedy.

 

[GrogNerd]

I don't think anyone is arguing that at all. The main point that keeps being echoed is that crush is the main culprit in low efficiency (not the only culprit) and the easiest to diagnose and remedy.

which I said yesterday

my point was that even with a default crush from myLHBS, my efficiency jumped 5 & 10 points by pH adjustment alone

I didn't realize this until someone mentioned it in this thread and I went back and checked my brew log.

I might need more brews under my belt with the acid malt addition before I'm fully convinced.

 

[Oceantendency]

Have you tested your tap water? Most Home Depots have a water testing kit for free, or you can check a report from your local municipality. I mentioned the water cause pH, mineral content, and base grain can be greatly affected. I don't do additions to my water, but mostly use Spring or RO water. My water at home is pretty hard, so unless the style needs hard water, I spend a few bucks on RO/spring water. It's worth it. Consistency is the key, I typically get 74-76% eff and totally happy with it. Do you test your Ph during the Mash? I typically will test my water prior to adding my grain and a 5-10 min into the mash. Glad you took good notes, that probably saved you a few brews to find that clue. How long do you batch sparge for? Is your last runnings pretty clear each time?

 

[s89bunton]

Have you tested your tap water? Most Home Depots have a water testing kit for free, or you can check a report from your local municipality. I mentioned the water cause pH, mineral content, and base grain can be greatly affected. I don't do additions to my water, but mostly use Spring or RO water. My water at home is pretty hard, so unless the style needs hard water, I spend a few bucks on RO/spring water. It's worth it. Consistency is the key, I typically get 74-76% eff and totally happy with it. Do you test your Ph during the Mash? I typically will test my water prior to adding my grain and a 5-10 min into the mash. Glad you took good notes, that probably saved you a few brews to find that clue. How long do you batch sparge for? Is your last runnings pretty clear each time?

Honestly I have never tested my water(oops). I live in ohio where I'm told the water is pretty good. I suppose the reason I never tested was because when I first got into extract brewing I was told not to use hose water and if it was safe to drink it was ok to brew with. So I never paid it much thought until now. I had always seen people use ph stabilizers in videos and test the water, but usually they would say that they live out west where the water is goofy. Honestly it could be my water. I'm using plane city tap water.


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[GrogNerd]

our county water varies depending on season and weather. when it rains, they dump additional chemicals and it affects the supply for about a week.

too much variance for me, so I'm buying my water

 

[s89bunton]

Also my sparge takes me about 45 minutes to an hour. I'll let it sit for 10 minutes then stir. Do that 3 or 4 times. This is something the owner of my local shop told me to do. Then I vorloft until clear. Let it drain very slow.


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[Yooper]

Also my sparge takes me about 45 minutes to an hour. I'll let it sit for 10 minutes then stir. Do that 3 or 4 times. This is something the owner of my local shop told me to do. Then I vorloft until clear. Let it drain very slow.


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You don't have to do that. If you're batch sparging, you stir in the water, stir really hard, and then simply vorlauf and drain. You don't have to let it sit, do it in multiple additions, or do it slowly. The beauty of the way it works is that it is quick, unlike fly sparging.

I haven't lived in Ohio in a long time, but I know that in Eastern Ohio, from Cleveland to East Liverpool, the water is not good for brewing. It's too high in bicarbonate and the folks I know in that area who brew buy RO water or have their own systems.

 

[GrogNerd]

You don't have to do that. If you're batch sparging, you stir in the water, stir it like it owes you money, and then simply vorlauf and drain. You don't have to let it sit, do it in multiple additions, or do it slowly. The beauty of the way it works is that it is quick, unlike fly sparging.

I haven't lived in Ohio in a long time, but I know that in Eastern Ohio, from Cleveland to East Liverpool, the water is not good for brewing. It's too high in bicarbonate and the folks I know in that area who brew buy RO water or have their own systems.

fixed that for ya

 

[s89bunton]

You don't have to do that. If you're batch sparging, you stir in the water, stir really hard, and then simply vorlauf and drain. You don't have to let it sit, do it in multiple additions, or do it slowly. The beauty of the way it works is that it is quick, unlike fly sparging.



I haven't lived in Ohio in a long time, but I know that in Eastern Ohio, from Cleveland to East Liverpool, the water is not good for brewing. It's too high in bicarbonate and the folks I know in that area who brew buy RO water or have their own systems.

That's good to know. I'm brewing on Friday I will try that.


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