Looking for suggestions for a good primary yeast straing for a sour ale

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TAK

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For my first real sour ale, I'm planning on pitching a healthy starter of a Sacc strain, along with Wyeast Roeselare Blend (wy3763), and also White Labs Brettanomyces lambicus (WLP653).

I'm pitching the WLP Brett L along with the Roeselare because I want to tilt this sour ale towards the funky spectrum.

Of course, many recommend a Belgian strain of Sacc for a beer like this. I've only done a few Belgians, before I had good temp control, and I've been very displeased with how they've turned out. Banana bombs, basically. I'm completely open to a Belgian strain, but want to be sure it's well suited for a funky sour and that I don't end up with a sour banana ale.

So,... I'm soliciting some suggestions for a primary Sacc strain I should consider using.

Also, I can hit any temp precisely with my setup, so I'd really appreciate fermentation temp advice paired with the strain suggestions.

Cheers!
:mug:
 
I like the way you're thinking with the extra funk! The first pitch of a pack of Roeselare is notorious for not getting very sour. I would highly recommend skipping the Sacch primary, and just pitching the Roeselare and Brett L. That being said however, once you've re-pitched the Roeselare cake a couple of times, it will start to get pretty rowdy with it's acid production and a Sacch primary will help to keep the sour under control. I've been using WLP530 because: I use it in a lot of my clean Belgians and have cakes sitting around, and it turns out great. One of the coolest things about becoming a funky brewer is getting to know the relationships between all of the different bugs in your beer. The compounds that Belgian strains produce that we describe as banana and bubblegum are eaten and converted into funk by the Brett over time. By the time the Brett is finished, it will be like they were never there. You may even have a tough time getting a really funky beer if you don't use one of those strains, although I haven't played around with clean primaries and can't speak from experience about it. As far as temperature goes, I keep all of my sours at ambient in my basement, which swings from low 60s to low 70s throughout the year. I do all of my sour brewing in the fall, so primary is around 66-68 wort temp.
Hope this helps! :mug:
 
Thanks for the feedback.

This is some good information about Roeselare that I don't think I've heard before, which stirs up some questions...

vagabondat02 said:
The first pitch of a pack of Roeselare is notorious for not getting very sour. I would highly recommend skipping the Sacch primary, and just pitching the Roeselare and Brett L. That being said however, once you've re-pitched the Roeselare cake a couple of times, it will start to get pretty rowdy with it's acid production and a Sacch primary will help to keep the sour under control...

The compounds that Belgian strains produce that we describe as banana and bubblegum are eaten and converted into funk by the Brett over time. By the time the Brett is finished, it will be like they were never there. You may even have a tough time getting a really funky beer if you don't use one of those strains
Click to expand...

I'm sure these have been asked elsewhere, but now I'm wondering...

1) Because of the interplay between Sacc and Brett, I was planning on including the Sacc. If I go Roeselare + Bett L only, will I still get the funky benefits of the Brett L? As you mention, I may not get a really funky beer without a Belgian Sacc stain.

2) I was planning on pitching my Sacc with the Roeselare, at the same time, rather than Sacc on its own first. Do you think pitching at the same time will still result in a not-so-sour beer the first time around? Sour is more important to me than funk, I guess, so I'd rather err on fostering the sour if it's a give and take situation.

3) If I'm pitching Roeselare as the primary...

a) Should I make a starter based on about the same calculations as a typical ale pitch?

b) If I were to pitch Sacc, I'd rack of the cake after a month or so. So, with Roeselare and Brett L only, do you want to, and if so when when should you rack off the primary cake? -- I'm planning on inoculating about 5-5.5 gal, but bumping it up to a 6.5 gal solera.

4) And lastly, if Roeselare comes into it's sour stride after repitching, can I expect similar development over time in a solera?
 
I've used Roeselare before and it funked and soured up fine. I didn't use any additional Sacch. because, from what I understand, the blend already has a Belgian strain in it. You won't need more that what is in the smack pack. You don't need a starter for it. In fact, you shouldn't use a starter because it can possibly get the yeast/bacteria ratios all out of whack. Just dump the contents of the pack into your wort and you'll be fine.

I've never reused a cake from a batch with Roeselare, so I can't speak to that.
 
Roeselare already has sacc in it. You don't need to add any more.

You should not make a starter with the Roeselare. A starter will make the sacc dominant, slowing diwn the souring. Roeselare has only a little sacc, which allows the bugs a short while to increase their colonies before the sacc starts to produce alcohol, which is what slows them down.

I don't have any real reason, but I would not pitch the brett until the sacc in the Roeselare has started. I would not make a starter with the brett either.
 
The sourness in your solera will definitely increase over time, but there are a lot of factors in play as to how quickly it will happen: the material the vessel and bung are made of, how often you pull, how much you pull, how often you top off... If I were starting a solera in a large carboy, (which is what I'm assuming you're doing) I would primary in a bucket for about a month and then rack it to the carboy with a little bit of the trub. I would then save the cake in a mason jar and keep it at room temp to favor the bug and Brett survival over the Sacch. A month before the first pull I would pitch the refill wort on top of the cake, along with a Sacch strain since the Sacch in the cake will probably be long dead.
 
Last year's kriek turned out pretty funky with a single smack pack of Roeselare in primary. Doing the same again this year with proper aging, so I'll let you know how it is in June 2016.

Now, I'm not saying it couldn't be funkier, but with all the time that goes into a sour, maybe you want to pitch the Roesey in primary, then split in secondary and add the extra Brett to one half? That would give you the option to blend if it gets too crazy.
 
vagabondat02 said:
If I were starting a solera in a large carboy, (which is what I'm assuming you're doing) I would primary in a bucket for about a month and then rack it to the carboy with a little bit of the trub. I would then save the cake in a mason jar and keep it at room temp to favor the bug and Brett survival over the Sacch. A month before the first pull I would pitch the refill wort on top of the cake, along with a Sacch strain since the Sacch in the cake will probably be long dead.
Click to expand...

^ This is a great idea. I definitely think I'll be doing this.


Calder said:
I don't have any real reason, but I would not pitch the brett until the sacc in the Roeselare has started.
Click to expand...

^ I had the same inclination, to let the Roeselare do it's thing for a while first, and then direct pitch the vial of Brett L in the secondary. I wonder though, if I'm saving the primary cake, I wonder if it would be better to have some Brett L in there too. Thoughts, anyone?


benflath said:
...with all the time that goes into a sour, maybe you want to pitch the Roesey in primary, then split in secondary and add the extra Brett to one half? That would give you the option to blend if it gets too crazy.
Click to expand...

^ This is a good suggestion. However, I'll be starting another solera, hopefully in this next year. So, I'll have a couple going side by side, which should give some blending options.
 
I'd recommend the White Labs Farmhouse blend WLP670.

I've used it twice so far and it got me a very sour beer in 2 months time. I stopped them there because I only wanted a tart brett'd beer and it was already bordering on too sour for me. I also added some dregs here and there. The yeast is nuts. The 2nd generation worked even faster than the first. Probably because I threw off teh blend balance
 
m00ps said:
I'd recommend the White Labs Farmhouse blend WLP670.

I've used it twice so far and it got me a very sour beer in 2 months time. I stopped them there because I only wanted a tart brett'd beer and it was already bordering on too sour for me. I also added some dregs here and there. The yeast is nuts. The 2nd generation worked even faster than the first. Probably because I threw off teh blend balance
Click to expand...

Most likely (not knowing exactly what you added) it was the dregs that caused it to get so sour. 670 is Brett+Sacc only. I also used this plus some dregs and bottled at 4 months and it was deliciously funky but slightly tart, probably from the Jolly Pumpkin ES Bam dregs (all others I added were definitely just Brett). Mine was pretty hoppy, though, so that kept the lacto from going too far.

Back on topic, OP, I would pitch the Roes as is. It has sacc in there and you'll probably get more action from the bugs at that concentration than if you overwhelm them with sacc growth or alcohol from being thrown into secondary fermentation. Then I would add the Brett L to the primary. Not sure I'd do a secondary unless fruit was involved. Good luck!
 
Ok, so I've definitely settled on NOT pitching any Sacc. Which is funny, because it takes me completely away from my OP title.

I'll pitch the Roeselare as the primary, no starter. The WLP Brett L will probably go in the primary, but possibly into the secondary. Primary will be a bucket, for about a month, then I'll rack into a carboy with a touch of the trub. This will be the beginning of my solera. I'm not sure what my solera schedule will be, but after about a year I'll take my first pull and replace it. The beer that I replace it with will be primary fermented with a Belgian Sacc strain along with the cake stored away from this first brew. I suppose I’m still open to more suggestions about what strain I should use for that brew, and subsequent additions to the solera.

I don't think I'll supply O2 to the primary. But if someone has some reasons why they think I should, I'd be happy to hear them. I'm mostly worried about acetic acid production, and I believe that Wyeast does not recommend oxygenation.

New Question:

• How much of a krausen can I expect from a Roeselare fermentation?

The reason I ask is because I want to ferment as close to 7 gallons as possible, so that I can fill a 6.5 gal carboy up to the neck for my solera. I don't have anything to ferment 7 gallons of beer, but I do have a 7 gal bucket. I wouldn't usually put 6 gallons in there to ferment, but if the Roeselare krausen is small, then I might go for it. I’ll produce enough wort on brew day, but whatever I can't primary ferment with Roeselare, maybe 1 more gallon, I will ferment on the side with a Belgian strain of Sacc. Then I'll use that to top off the rest of my 6.5 gal secondary.

Thanks for all the feedback. Gotta appreciate the HBT community.
 
TAK said:
I don't think I'll supply O2 to the primary. But if someone has some reasons why they think I should, I'd be happy to hear them. I'm mostly worried about acetic acid production, and I believe that Wyeast does not recommend oxygenation.

New Question:

• How much of a krausen can I expect
Click to expand...

No need to worry about acetic acid at the start. The O2 is to help the sacc reproduce. I think you need it. Acetic acid needs alcohol to form. You don't have any alcohol at the start.

Yes, you will get decent krausen.
 
Calder said:
Acetic acid needs alcohol to form. You don't have any alcohol at the start.
Click to expand...

Good point. Sometimes, I suppose, the whole picture doesn't come together until someone else sheds some light.
 
I just stumbled across The Yeast Bay, who offers Melange, a sour blend. I'm thinking about jumping my plan from Roeselare to Melange. Melange seems to be a more diverse culture. It has...
5 Brett strains, as opposed to 2;
2 Sacc Cerevisiae, as opposed to 1;
2 Lacto, as opposed to 1;
and Pedio, like Roeselare does.
It has Sacc fermentati, which I believe is Sherry Flor, like Roeselare has (is that right?)

Any reason why a first time sour ale brewer should favor the more recognizable Roeselare over the more bio-diverse Yeast Bay Melange?
 
The only reason I can come up with is what sort of style you're shooting for. Roeselare produces a classic Flanders Red or Brown flavor profile. So if that's what you're brewing, it's hard to beat. As far as the Melange goes, I haven't used it, but I'm sure someone on here has. You can always just put a blowoff on your bucket for a large fermentation. If you lose a ton of Sacch and the beer under attenuates a little, it will just leave more for the bugs and Brett.
 
I think I'm leaning more towards the Yeast Bay Melange. I don't have any particular style in mind, just a tart, funky, golden American sour ale.

Another question about this...

vagabondat02 said:
I would then save the cake in a mason jar and keep it at room temp to favor the bug and Brett survival over the Sacch. A month before the first pull I would pitch the refill wort on top of the cake, along with a Sacch strain since the Sacch in the cake will probably be long dead.
Click to expand...

I really like this idea. How many times do you think I can keep using and saving the cake as I continue to brew replacements for my solera?

After the second use, it'll of course have a bunch of extra Sacc in it. Do you think for 3rd use and forward I should feed it mid-year with an anaerobic starter?
 
Reusing a sour cake is kind of an exercise in contradiction. There isn't really a way to add a starter to get the Sacch active without throwing off the balance of the microbes. Since I pull from my solera once a year, by the time I reuse my cake all of the Sacch is dead, but the Brett and bacteria are doing fine. Think of your cake as a massive bottle dreg addition: just adding it for bugs. I add a slightly under pitched amount of Sacch along with my cake to the fresh wort and go from there. After a couple of years the solera should be old, buggy, and sour enough that you can just rack clean beer into it and the resident microbes will get the job done. If you want to hang onto the cake forever, a feeding every six months or so should be fine.
 
I have a pale sour I brewed back in August that used Melange in it. It isn't sour yet, but has a very awesome fruity/citrus taste. I have high hopes for it.
 
That answers my question. I think I may have gave the impression I wanted to keep the Sacc healthy. I understand it will die off during storage and that's ok, even good. It makes sense that you only need to keep it for the first 2-3 years of refill wort, then just let the solera handle it.
 
As I mentioned I'd be doing, I plan on fermenting as much as I can with the Roeselare, but I'll still need about 1.0-1.5 gal to top off my solera carboy after the Roeselare primary.

How should I ferment the extra wort, probably an extra 2 gal? These are the options I'm considering:

1) Ferment it at the same time with a Belgian Sacc strain.
1.a) Maybe throw in some commercial dregs too.

2) Ferment it at the same time with WLP Brett L. - although this could make the WLP Brett way too dominant over the other strains in the Melange blend when the two batches are combined.

3) Wait until I transfer the 5 gallons off the Roeselare cake into the 6.5 gal solera carboy, then ferment the extra on top of that cake for another month before transferring to top off the Solera carboy.

I think I'm leaning towards #3. I don't really like that my 6.5 gal will have 1.5 gal of headspace while the top-off batch is fermenting. But, I think others will say there's not much concern of O2 exposure if I'm careful. Am I right?
 
While you have an active Sacch fermentation it will be throwing off tons of CO2, so it will be fine with the headspace.
 
Well, this would be after the active primary fermentation. I'd be racking about 5 gal off the primary cake and into a 6.5 gal carboy. The plan would be to ferment another couple gallons with that buggy, sacchy cake to fill the rest of the 6.5 gal carboy to the brim. During that second batch is the time I'd be worried about the first batch sitting in the carboy with a lot of headspace. But, I'd probably blast some CO2 in the headspace (from my tank), and I think that should keep it safe while the top-off batch is going.

I hope?
 
I vote that you wild-ferment the extra 1.5 gallons by adding some 2-row and nothing else. You might just brew a full 5g batch and call the other 3.5g a Berliner. But options 1, 2 and 3 all sound fine as well. If you're leaning towards 3 and are concerned about the headspace, just add a couple ounces of sugar to generate some CO2. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it, as you'll probably pick up more oxygen during the transfer than from the headspace. Mixed cultures are pretty good at eliminating oxygen anyway, if this MadFermentationist fellow is to be believed.
 
Sorry, I misread that previous post and thought you were worried about headspace in the the top off wort. Kingwood nailed it, your Brett will be bulking up and scavenging any oxygen it can get it ahold of.
 
Ha, it just so happens I serendipitously found myself inoculating my first spontaneous fermentation experiment today. I also ordered my Melange today. However, I don't think I'll be trusting the fate of my Melange fermentation to the will of a truly wild culture.

Thanks for the reassurance. I think I'll go with method #3 I described above. I'm still debating if I should add some WLP Brett L to the mix, or just roll with the Melange.
 
If Melange has five brett strains, I'm not sure adding a 6th will change things much. That's if it's even a 6th, one of those five may be Brett L or something very similar.
 
I'd just pitch the Melange. I could be totally wrong, but I don't know if the additional Brett will do much. I'd just save it for another beer.
 
That's what I'm thinking too. I wanted to add the extra funky Brett when I had been planning on using Roeselare. But since the Melange has much more Brett diversity than Roeselare, I'm not sure it'll make much of a difference, or if it's worth it. I think I'll just pitch the Melange. I can always Brett up a future addition to the Solera if I think it needs tweaking.
 
I brewed this on Sunday, pitched the vial of Melange and dregs from a lambic. I provided O2 with a diffusion stone for the same amount I'd do for a normal fermentation of the same gravity. I'm holding temp within +/- 1 degree of 70F. I got gas activity through the blowoff on Monday morning, probably at most 15 hours after pitch, and it really picked up by 24 hours. After always growing starters, it feels weird to direct pitch into 6 gallons. I'm an avid glass carboy user, but this is in a bucket. It's killing me not to see what's going on in there.
 
I would rack to a carboy after primary fermentation is done. I'd be concerned a bucket would let in too much oxygen.
 
joshrosborne said:
I would rack to a carboy after primary fermentation is done. I'd be concerned a bucket would let in too much oxygen.
Click to expand...

Oh, that's totally my plan. After primary, probably a good month, I'll rack into a 6.5 gal carboy (which actually holds 7.0 gal when you go up to the neck). Then I'm pitching a smaller batch on top of the cake. That second batch will be used to top of the carboy all the way up to 7 gal. That's the start of my solera. I'll pull 3-4 gal, probably annually.
 
This quote...

Calder said:
- If the cake is only a few weeks old, you probably want to take about 3/4 of the cake away. The sacc yeast will be dominant and tear thru any fresh wort.
Click to expand...

From this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/pitching-onto-yeast-cake-how-502086/

got me thinking, rather more seriously thinking, about the pitch for my second batch to top off the solera. My first batch is 6 gal. I expect to get about 5.5 gal into the carboy. Then, my second batch will be just 2 gal, to get a solid 1.5 out in order to top off the carboy. The cake from this 6 gal batch is very certainly more than what is needed for the 2 gal. Should I remove a good portion before racking my second batch onto it? I imagine even just 1/5th of the cake is plenty. I'd save the rest of the cake for the next annual solera replacement batch, and might save the cake from my second small batch too.
 
Since 1/5 of a cake will do 5 gal easy, I'd do 2/5 of that (2/25?) for your two gallons. Better yet, use a yeast pitching rate calculator on the slurry setting. 30 ml of slurry has been calculated as enough for a gal in my experimental batches. I would save the cake in jars and measure out slurry to pitch.
 
I thought about taking a calculated approach like that. I'm usually very precise in my pitching rates. But for a couple of gallons of sour that will make up about 20% of my initial solera fill, is being catious to not over-pitch that important? Maybe it is, just asking.
 
I would just do it that way personally because it's easy, and I'm used to doing it. I'm going to harvest it and store it in the jars anyway, might as well measure out the pitch. I'd also be afraid of pitching too much sacc because I want it to sour.
 

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