Little Aroma from Dry Hop

[40ozBreWing]

Okay, I have read through some of the threads to see what could lead to this, but I don't think I have committed any of the listed errors.

Here is my scenario / dilemma.

I brewed a session IPA back at the end of June (I talk about this brew in the following thread where I discussed losing some flavor/aromatics from between racking from primary to secondary and the time i bottled: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=631487).

Aside from losing some flavor, which may be that it got oxidized according to what i have read here / the input i have received, I also noticed when i bottled that i didn't have much hop aroma even though i dry hopped in the secondary.

I dry hopped with 3.25 ounces of pellet hops (for just under 5 gallons) for 5 days at 66 degrees. The hops were fresh (as they had a wonderful aroma and were fresh and new from Williams) and i didn't do any more gravity checks after i dry hopped as i know i reached final gravity (so hopefully no more O2 was introduced to the system). But when i smelled the carboy just prior to bottling, there was not much aroma. That said, I did get wafts of aroma as i bottled so maybe some aroma got in there and i just couldn't tell (there was a nice hop oil sheen on top of the beer prior to bottling; maybe because my hop sacks floated?).

I am having a tough time trying to decipher all of the comments across numerous threads in regard to amount time to dry hop; many different opinions here. Perhaps i shouldn't have hopped so long but surely i would have gotten something. Or maybe indeed the beer was oxygenated even though i was very careful when i racked to secondary.

Can anybody speak to this? Is there something i missed, am doing wrong?

I can tell you this, I 'cheated' and tasted one of my beers yesterday to see how carbonation was coming (6 days into conditioning) and tho the aroma was little, the flavor was pretty darned good; it was bright and refreshing. So hopefully, i didn't lose as much as I thought between primary ferm and bottling. My brew day was 6/23. Carbonation was okay but i am going to give another week before i try it again. Maybe some more dry hop aroma will come out with additional carbonation???

Thanks, all.

BW

"A third batch, newb"

 

[Rob2010SS]

Hey BW, fellow noob here. My first batch is in bottles 2 weeks as of today. Although it's good and drinkable, what I intended to be an IPA is not an IPA. I had the same problem with mine, where I felt the dry hop aroma was almost absent. After everything I've been reading lately in regards to the lack of hop aroma in my beer, I would almost guess you have the same problem I do - oxygen. I transferred to secondary for my dry hopping as well and I can tell you for sure on my next one, I'm dry hopping in the primary.

Again, that's just the 2 cents of a noob, the experts might have better suggestions for you.

 

[40ozBreWing]

Rob, I hear ya, and agree(!), i like you will skip the secondary next time. What i want to do though, in the next few days, is post another thread inquiring about primary fermentation hopping, and overall, this issue of oxidation.

My concern there is okay, i dry hop with 0.004 or thereabouts SG points left to go in fermentation, but what about introducing oxygen when i add secondary additions (a la Firestone Walker) a few days before bottling? Not to mention the handful of times the fermenting bucket gets opened up to assure FG has been reached? And i don't see low tech way of purging headspace O2 after each check or addition. Like i said, i need to put all of my questions into a concise thread.

thanks for reaching out, brother-noob!

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

If I'm making an IPA I like to put in an ounce of Amarillo at flameout and then dry hop with an ounce of Citra. I make 2 gallon batches so doubling that for 5 gallon batches makes sense. Different hops have more and less of certain compounds and different people smell things differently. For example many people get excited about Cascade hops, but for me they seem lacking. Try different hops and see which ones you like best. Often a commercial beer will say what it is dry hopped with and you can get an idea without having to make a whole batch of beer.

 

[TungstenBeer]

I'll be honest, if you were careful when you were transferring, I don't really think oxidation is the problem. I do, however, think it can be very difficult - especially for a new brewer - to tell what's good vs. bad when you're tasting a beer than probably isn't even finished carbonating yet. Hell, I still struggle to decide how pre-carbed beer tastes after brewing for 5+ years.

I saw the link in your other thread about ********************. That advice may very well be all accurate and smart to follow, but very very few brewers follow all of those practices. Many excellent IPAs have been made using a secondary vessel to dry-hop. And as you said, awesome breweries like FW introduce some level of oxygen when they put multiple rounds of dry hops in.

Anyway, it's just my opinion. It could be oxidation, but it could be a number of other things...

How does it taste and smell after being fully carbed? (answer after a few more days)
How fresh were the hops?
What hops were used?
What was the recipe?
What kind of water do you have?
How was the quality of the extract you used (assuming you are doing extract brews)?
What was your dry hopping procedure? Loose, bags, SS screen, other?

 

[40ozBreWing]

I'll be honest, if you were careful when you were transferring, I don't really think oxidation is the problem. I do, however, think it can be very difficult - especially for a new brewer - to tell what's good vs. bad when you're tasting a beer than probably isn't even finished carbonating yet. Hell, I still struggle to decide how pre-carbed beer tastes after brewing for 5+ years.

I saw the link in your other thread about ********************. That advice may very well be all accurate and smart to follow, but very very few brewers follow all of those practices. Many excellent IPAs have been made using a secondary vessel to dry-hop. And as you said, awesome breweries like FW introduce some level of oxygen when they put multiple rounds of dry hops in.

Anyway, it's just my opinion. It could be oxidation, but it could be a number of other things...

How does it taste and smell after being fully carbed? (answer after a few more days)
How fresh were the hops?
What hops were used?
What was the recipe?
What kind of water do you have?
How was the quality of the extract you used (assuming you are doing extract brews)?
What was your dry hopping procedure? Loose, bags, SS screen, other?

I agree, my tastes are green as well as my experience level but all i know, in regard to that first thread, was the noted change in the hop flavor (and aroma), which was less. Also then anticpated big hop aroma after dry hopping, but it was extremely muted. My experience level is 0 in trying to figure out why.

Like i said, my recipe was a mashup of all the attempts online to brew ADIPA.
The hops were fresh, from Williams.
I did partial mash (or mostly mash), using DME (Breiss) to make up the rest of the grain bill.
Hops: Magnum for bittering. Flavor was Amarillo, Simcoe, Crystal, Chinook
I used water ran through the charcoal filter in my fridge. I got a city water report and all the parameters were within range, save for sulfate, so i added gypsum. I used EZ Water Calculator to determine the amount.
I dry hopped with the above, and the addition of citra, divided in two muslin bags, one of which i weighed down with sanitized 304 stainless ballbearings, but there wasn't enough to keep it on bottom. Need more the next go 'round.

I did the two bags knowing one would float but hoping to get the other down into the beer column/on bottom, where they would release their oils throughout the beer. Anybody ever done this? Like i said, unfortunately, both bags floated at the top for 5 days and there was an oil sheen / slick on top.

Edit: oh, my flavor hops were all late additions, plus, i ran the wort from the kettle, through a homemade hopback, through the chillers and into the ferm bucket.

 

[TungstenBeer]

I did the two bags knowing one would float but hoping to get the other down into the beer column/on bottom, where they would release their oils throughout the beer. Anybody ever done this? Like i said, unfortunately, both bags floated at the top for 5 days and there was an oil sheen / slick on top.

What are you asking? If people have weighed down dry hop bags? Yes, that's pretty common. I've used glass marbles, small stainless steel nuts/washers, clean shot glasses (bucket only), etc.

A floating hop bag would definitely be cause to have less-than-expected dry hop aroma, but I'm not sure how much.

It mostly seems like your process and recipe are fairly solid, though.

Do what you will with this link, but I've learned a ton about brewing from his blog. Unfortunately he's not very active anymore but his archived stuff is still great. If you believe what he writes, then he would probably suggest that you were at the bare minimum for dry hops. Couple that with a couple of other factors and that could lead to less-than-expected dry hop impact. http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/08/how-to-brew-better-ipas.html

 

[40ozBreWing]

yup, that is what i was asking; i thought it to be beneficial to get the pellets down in the beer but have not heard of people doing that. That combined with the fact that if i were using whole hops to dry hop with they would float, like my bags, so, maybe i wouldn't need to weigh down the muslin sacks. I like you thoughts and take on it and will be trying to weigh them down again, on the next batch.

Thanks for the link, i will check it out. I appreciate the words on the process and the recipe. My goal is to get the process down, with this same recipe and then start trying new things/recipes. I haven't got a consistent methodology down, yet.

 

[TungstenBeer]

Definitely - MoreBeer actually sells clear glass marbles for that exact purpose. You can probably find them cheaper elsewhere, no doubt, but my point is it's a common enough practice that they actually sell them.

I didn't understand this sentence though:

That combined with the fact that if i were using whole hops to dry hop with they would float, like my bags, so, maybe i wouldn't need to weigh down the muslin sacks. I like you thoughts and take on it and will be trying to weigh them down again, on the next batch.

Again, I'm not sure what you are saying. But you used pellets and they floated. Leafs would float too. In my opinion, both need a weight.

Just make sure you use weights that are small enough to get out. That's why I use marbles. The first time I used parts that barely fit through the opening. They were easy to get in... getting out was a maddening exercise though.

 

[tooldudetool]

Don't be afraid to just throw your pellet dry hops right into the primary once active fermentation is done. They will mostly just sink to the bottom, with a thin layer left on top, which will stick to the sides of the fermenter when you rack your beer out. I have heard of people dry hopping in mesh bags only to find the hops in the middle aren't even wet! Talk about DRY hops! You want to maximize the surface area exposed to the beer to extract all those hop oils. Also, just use more hops. I use 4 oz of dry hops for an IPA, and around 6 for a DIPA. Pro breweries with super hoppy ipas are using a crapload of whirlpool and dry hops. Also, once your beer is fully carbonated, the rising and popping bubbles are what carries that aroma out of the beer and into the headspace of your glass, which should increase the hoppy aroma...

 

[40ozBreWing]

Tooldude,
I have thought about that but my question is, if i am only dry hopping with pellets added straight to the wort/beer, will they settle out in just three days? I want to limit my dry hop on my next batch to 3 days, no more than 4.

Also, here is what i did, i used 4 oz on my boil, 3.6 ounces of which were late boil additions; i used 2 more ounces in the hopback which was placed between hot wort and the chiller, and of course the 3.25 oz for dry hopping. Per calculations that gave me a 57 ibu's and a BU:GU ratio of 1.3. This is greater than an imperial IPA! I have a green beer that has nice hop tones but nothing close to an IIPA.

So, in response to what you are saying, i should and can add more hops, and will, but in trying use the different calculations and charts for trying to acquire a style of beer, this now goes out the window. As a newb, i need/use these calculations and guidelines as my roadmap to a certain style of beer but if i have to exceed the bounds just try and make a style, how do i know what to expect; and then, classify it after it is done? Make sense? Maybe it is a silly question; maybe i just brew what feels right until i reach that style and don't worry about the "numbers".

Or, in regard to my hops again, maybe i am just not getting enough efficiency out of them?

 

[Dcpcooks]

Major breweries do not just toss hops into a beer. Most use a hop cannon to dry hop. That's a co2 purged and charged container that shoots hops into the fermentor.

If I were you I would limit my gravity samples to one at the end of fermentation. I would not rack to secondary I'd dry hop on top of my cake and I'd do it without a bag. Then I'd let my hops settle out and rack the beer.

So limit oxygen exposure.
Extend dry hop time or increase your dry hop quantity.
Look at late kettle additions to boost aroma. Think of it like a soup or stew. You need to season it as you make it with lots of little steps. You wouldn't want to dump all the salt and pepper in right before you eat it. You can build aroma along the way with late hop additions, whirlpool and hop stands. Cool your wort quickly and get it into fermentation.

Carbonation will also aid you in detecting aroma, so you still don't have a true sampling of your beer yet.

 

[lilbova3]

Recipe looks great. I used to bottle and found my first few bottled IPAs lacked the aroma I wanted. My process ended up getting better and the bottled IPAs got better and then I decided to make the jump to kegging. I usually keg 3.5-4 gallons of brew so I'm in your same wheel house for batch size. I normally use 8 ounces of hops for my IPAs. A few things I'd add and some points people have covered.

Whirlpool - the temp you add the hops is important so the oils don't get lost. I usually add around 175* or less and allow to stay in the kettle for 30 mins, stirring every once in awhile.

Time in fermentor - make sure you're pitching plenty of yeast into aerated wort for a healthy fermentation. I'm rarely keeping beer in the fermentor more than 7-8 days. Control the temp early, allow to rise to 70 by day three and sit at 70-72 for day 4 and 5. Then add dry hop. Which leads me to...

Dry hopping - maybe bump up the amount to 4 oz. I would recommend not to bag the hops. That will limit the contact with the beer. I like to throw mine in as yeast are starting to slow down. I also use 1318, a top cropping yeast, so there's some yeast around to consume some oxygen if any is around. I would also recommend throwing in all the hops at once. No need to spread out. There have been studies that you can allow the hops to only be in the beer for 24 hours and all the flavor and aroma will be absorbed. Going a few more days would be ok too.

Carbing - IPAs must be drank quick, as you know. I remember one of the last IPAs I bottled I threw a beer in the fridge after 5 days of being in the bottle. Yes, way too soon some would say. I let sit in the fridge for a couple of days and then tried. Was carbed perfectly fine and had great aroma.

Hopefully this helps and you start getting the aroma you're hoping for! [emoji482]

 

[40ozBreWing]

Major breweries do not just toss hops into a beer. Most use a hop cannon to dry hop. That's a co2 purged and charged container that shoots hops into the fermentor.

If I were you I would limit my gravity samples to one at the end of fermentation. I would not rack to secondary I'd dry hop on top of my cake and I'd do it without a bag. Then I'd let my hops settle out and rack the beer.

So limit oxygen exposure.
Extend dry hop time or increase your dry hop quantity.
Look at late kettle additions to boost aroma. Think of it like a soup or stew. You need to season it as you make it with lots of little steps. You wouldn't want to dump all the salt and pepper in right before you eat it. You can build aroma along the way with late hop additions, whirlpool and hop stands. Cool your wort quickly and get it into fermentation.

Carbonation will also aid you in detecting aroma, so you still don't have a true sampling of your beer yet.

Thanks for the recommendations! How long should i anticipate it to take to have the pellet hop debris to fall out of the beer column? I think what i would like to do is, do a dry hop stage right before fermentation is done, and then, at some point (a week after ferm is done?), do another dry hop; like firestone walker does. In regards to that second round of hops i would like to try and bottle 3 days later----again, only if you think/know that the hops should be settled out. Or, if it take longer than three days to settle out, use a weighted muslin sack on that last dry hop?

 

[40ozBreWing]

Recipe looks great. I used to bottle and found my first few bottled IPAs lacked the aroma I wanted. My process ended up getting better and the bottled IPAs got better and then I decided to make the jump to kegging. I usually keg 3.5-4 gallons of brew so I'm in your same wheel house for batch size. I normally use 8 ounces of hops for my IPAs. A few things I'd add and some points people have covered.

Whirlpool - the temp you add the hops is important so the oils don't get lost. I usually add around 175* or less and allow to stay in the kettle for 30 mins, stirring every once in awhile.

Time in fermentor - make sure you're pitching plenty of yeast into aerated wort for a healthy fermentation. I'm rarely keeping beer in the fermentor more than 7-8 days. Control the temp early, allow to rise to 70 by day three and sit at 70-72 for day 4 and 5. Then add dry hop. Which leads me to...

Dry hopping - maybe bump up the amount to 4 oz. I would recommend not to bag the hops. That will limit the contact with the beer. I like to throw mine in as yeast are starting to slow down. I also use 1318, a top cropping yeast, so there's some yeast around to consume some oxygen if any is around. I would also recommend throwing in all the hops at once. No need to spread out. There have been studies that you can allow the hops to only be in the beer for 24 hours and all the flavor and aroma will be absorbed. Going a few more days would be ok too.

Carbing - IPAs must be drank quick, as you know. I remember one of the last IPAs I bottled I threw a beer in the fridge after 5 days of being in the bottle. Yes, way too soon some would say. I let sit in the fridge for a couple of days and then tried. Was carbed perfectly fine and had great aroma.

Hopefully this helps and you start getting the aroma you're hoping for! [emoji482]

Thanks!! Recipes are fun to build, now if i can just master the brew to bottle day, process.

I agree, after a few rounds of trying IPA's i am going to have to up the amount of hops. It will just blow my BU:GU out of the water but trying to balance that has yet to yield me a hoppy IPA.

Whirlpooling. Even though i built a kick-a** hopback, i am thinking i should eliminate it and the inline chillers, and get an immersion chiller; then whirlpool. I was whirlpooling the wort to build a trub cone and then would open the ball valve on my kettle letting the wort run through the hops in the hopback and then through two chillers. Now when you say whirlpool, you mean to use a paddle and spin / stir it, and when the temp is right, add the hops to the 'rotating' water, yes? I have a stainless paddle that i got from Northern Brewer that mounts into a drill.

I have been diligent about pitching enough yeast and in the last batch, used an aerator and O2 tank for two minutes. I dropped the OG from 1.043 down to 1.006. Fermentation temp (ambient) is around 66. Like i said in response to another post, i would like to dry hop at the end of primary, and then again, later. How long do you, via the way you mentioned above, let the dry hops sit before you bottle? What is your time / how many days from brew day to bottling, for you?

Carbing times has my head spinning. I agree, and it makes sense, that the sooner the better on getting the beer conditioned, but i have also seen others that wait weeks before doing so. Hell, like my original post from a different thread said, i wanted to bottle after fermentation was done (prior to going into secondary) because the wort tasted AWESOME at that point! But that would have been bottling 6 days after brew day.

Thanks agian,
BW

 

[Dcpcooks]

Thanks for the recommendations! How long should i anticipate it to take to have the pellet hop debris to fall out of the beer column? I think what i would like to do is, do a dry hop stage right before fermentation is done, and then, at some point (a week after ferm is done?), do another dry hop; like firestone walker does. In regards to that second round of hops i would like to try and bottle 3 days later----again, only if you think/know that the hops should be settled out. Or, if it take longer than three days to settle out, use a weighted muslin sack on that last dry hop?

I think you can plan on a second dry hop three to five days after you hit final gravity. That's assuming your first addition was a day or too before you hit final gravity. This is assuming you are bottle conditioning.

Three days to clear loose hops will be a bit quick. You may be better with a sanitized hop bag for the last addition. Just be gentle when adding the bag so you limit the risk of oxidation.

Do you have the ability to cold crash? If so you wouldn't need the bag. 3 day dry hop then a 24 hours cold crash at 40 or less will clear the beer.

 

[40ozBreWing]

I think you can plan on a second dry hop three to five days after you hit final gravity. That's assuming your first addition was a day or too before you hit final gravity. This is assuming you are bottle conditioning.

Three days to clear loose hops will be a bit quick. You may be better with a sanitized hop bag for the last addition. Just be gentle when adding the bag so you limit the risk of oxidation.

Do you have the ability to cold crash? If so you wouldn't need the bag. 3 day dry hop then a 24 hours cold crash at 40 or less will clear the beer.

Yes, your assumptions are correct. I plan on adding the first hops when the bubbling in the airlock slows down to a crawl. I would typically do gravity checks to see if i am within .004 of estimated FG, but, as we have been discussing, don't want to add anymore oxygen than necessary; i.e. I only want to open the fermenting bucket lid twice----for the two hop additions. And yes, i have not graduated to kegging, yet.

I do have the ability cold crash; if i were to do it, my plan would be as follows. I have a larger basin in which i can set my fermenting bucket and then i would pack it off with ice / ice-water. It would be in my basement where i put the fermentor, where it is 66*F; i would let it sit for (and reload ice as needed) between 24 & 36 hours. BUT that would get my beer between 32 & 40*F cold crashing temp. Is this okay?. Is my proposed method of cold crashing acceptable? Is this a process other homebrewers do?

Now, in regard to cold-crashing.... I really wanted to cold-crash this current beer i have bottle conditioning but i got spooked off by the contrasting opinions on this here, as well as many other forums. It seems like it is a 50/50 split in whether or not it is safe to cold crash before bottle condition or if you should only cold crash if you are kegging.

I understand and can see both sides but not sure what to do. Cold crashing makes cleaner, better tasting beer but in doing so you run the risk of not having enough yeast to ferment the sugars to carbonate the bottles. Plus having that 'extra' yeast in there can help clean up any carry over off flavors while the bottle is conditioning. Conversely, if i understand correctly, cold-crashing beer will result in beer that needs to be conditioned longer than two weeks. Some say up to 6 weeks. Well, if IPA's are to be consumed, fresh, then will it be losing hop flavors while the few yeast are slowly getting through the sugars?

Hence, in my lack of experience, i don't know what to do! I actually WANT to cold-crash BUT for fear of having flat beer, have yet to try it.

 

[Dcpcooks]

You will have plenty of yeast left to carbonate your beer with either method of dry hoping regardless of a cold crash.

If you had a 6 to 12 month old barrel aged beer you may want to add a bit of yeast with the dextrose. An extended lager may also need a bit of yeast. You can find formulas if needed. But a fresh IPA with the shorter timeline your pushing will have plenty of yeast remaining.

I suggest you try both methods (bag vs cold crash with free floating hops) and see what works best for you. I'd only crash it to the low 40's for a day and see if it's clear enough for your liking. Then you could even let it warm a bit before the transfer and packaging. I'd boil a syrup of dextrose and add that to you bottling bucket and rack the beer on top.

I don't know where your getting the "conditioned longer" idea from. I highly doubt you'll see a difference in carbonation time with or without a cold crash. Don't rush the process too much. Let the yeast finish it's job. Remember higher gravity beers will take a bit longer to ferment and bottle condition.

Pm me if you have any questions. Cheers

 

[TungstenBeer]

You will have plenty of yeast left to carbonate your beer with either method of dry hoping regardless of a cold crash.

If you had a 6 to 12 month old barrel aged beer you may want to add a bit of yeast with the dextrose. An extended lager may also need a bit of yeast. You can find formulas if needed. But a fresh IPA with the shorter timeline your pushing will have plenty of yeast remaining.

I suggest you try both methods (bag vs cold crash with free floating hops) and see what works best for you. I'd only crash it to the low 40's for a day and see if it's clear enough for your liking. Then you could even let it warm a bit before the transfer and packaging. I'd boil a syrup of dextrose and add that to you bottling bucket and rack the beer on top.

I don't know where your getting the "conditioned longer" idea from. I highly doubt you'll see a difference in carbonation time with or without a cold crash. Don't rush the process too much. Let the yeast finish it's job. Remember higher gravity beers will take a bit longer to ferment and bottle condition.

Pm me if you have any questions. Cheers

I agree with all of this.

 

[40ozBreWing]

You will have plenty of yeast left to carbonate your beer with either method of dry hoping regardless of a cold crash.

If you had a 6 to 12 month old barrel aged beer you may want to add a bit of yeast with the dextrose. An extended lager may also need a bit of yeast. You can find formulas if needed. But a fresh IPA with the shorter timeline your pushing will have plenty of yeast remaining.

I suggest you try both methods (bag vs cold crash with free floating hops) and see what works best for you. I'd only crash it to the low 40's for a day and see if it's clear enough for your liking. Then you could even let it warm a bit before the transfer and packaging. I'd boil a syrup of dextrose and add that to you bottling bucket and rack the beer on top.

I don't know where your getting the "conditioned longer" idea from. I highly doubt you'll see a difference in carbonation time with or without a cold crash. Don't rush the process too much. Let the yeast finish it's job. Remember higher gravity beers will take a bit longer to ferment and bottle condition.

Pm me if you have any questions. Cheers

Well, I believe you have given me the confidence to go ahead and try and cold crash the next batch. I want to not only do it because of the hops but because i have also had a lot of trub in my past two batches and would like a cleaner beer. If i understand correctly, in removing that trub (and hop debris) prior to bottling, i will bottle a cleaner, clearer beer, that will have less chance of having additional 'off' flavors by eliminating the majority of the debris, from the bottles (i.e. prior to bottling). Am i correct in this understanding?

All i meant by condition longer is, that with less yeast in solution it will take a little bit longer for them to get going on the dextrose and start carbonating the bottles. Maybe i am misunderstanding that?


As always, i appreciate the insight!

BW

P.S. Is there any detriment to the beer if my cold crashing temp is below 40? Like i said, about the only way i can cold crash is in an ice bath, which, even though i will add water to the ice pack, will have a hard time regulating the temperature. As i play it out in my mind, i foresee icing the fermentor down before i head to work and then adding more ice when i get home. So, the temp will start at the lower to mid 30's and rise through the day as the ice melts, and maybe even reach ambient 66 before i can add ice again. Maybe i am overthinking it, but i just want to make sure being below 40 and rising before temp can be brought back down again is of no detriment to the beer. And per what you said, and other things i have read, i will most likely let the beer come to ambient before i bottle it. I am looking at a 36 hour cold crash before bottling.

 

[TungstenBeer]

Well, I believe you have given me the confidence to go ahead and try and cold crash the next batch. I want to not only do it because of the hops but because i have also had a lot of trub in my past two batches and would like a cleaner beer. If i understand correctly, in removing that trub (and hop debris) prior to bottling, i will bottle a cleaner, clearer beer, that will have less chance of having additional 'off' flavors by eliminating the majority of the debris, from the bottles (i.e. prior to bottling). Am i correct in this understanding?

All i meant by condition longer is, that with less yeast in solution it will take a little bit longer for them to get going on the dextrose and start carbonating the bottles. Maybe i am misunderstanding that?

While technically that is probably correct, it is to a very small degree and probably not observable by us. I never experienced undercarbed beer and I always do a cold crash.

P.S. Is there any detriment to the beer if my cold crashing temp is below 40? Like i said, about the only way i can cold crash is in an ice bath, which, even though i will add water to the ice pack, will have a hard time regulating the temperature. As i play it out in my mind, i foresee icing the fermentor down before i head to work and then adding more ice when i get home. So, the temp will start at the lower to mid 30's and rise through the day as the ice melts, and maybe even reach ambient 66 before i can add ice again. Maybe i am overthinking it, but i just want to make sure being below 40 and rising before temp can be brought back down again is of no detriment to the beer. And per what you said, and other things i have read, i will most likely let the beer come to ambient before i bottle it. I am looking at a 36 hour cold crash before bottling.

No. 40 degrees is just a number, really. You don't want to freeze the beer, but that's about the only limit there is. I do mine to 2C (about 36F).

One other word of caution - because there is another thread circulating about this somewhere - you may want to consider letting the beer warm up a little after your cold crash but before you bottle. There have been some instances of exploding bottles if you bottle very cold beer. It by no means is a rule or anything though and I swear I'm not trying to scare you, hah. YMMV.

It seems like your approach of icing a couple times a day might naturally warm the beer some anyway.

 

[Dcpcooks]

You may want to get a few large water bottles and fill them with water to about 3/4 full and freeze them. The larger mass will melt at a slower rate and give you a little more stability. Cooling below 40 is fine if you can get there with ice. I suspect that will be a bit harder than you think. It'll take a lot of ice to cool 5 gallons 25-30 degrees. Yeast are pretty sensitive to temp changes so just dropping the temp 15-20 degrees should shut them down and help them drop. I can't say this enough, you really need to make sure the yeast is finished up before crashing. Dropping them too soon can cause them to release off flavor precursors back into the beer. I don't think a slow rise back to ambient temps will cause any issues before bottling . However you can bottle it while it's on the cold side and let it warm up to conditioning temps in the bottle. I'd say that's a better plan actually. You'll keep more co2 in suspension with the beer cold which will release into the bottle as it warms rather than into your bottling bucket or fermentor.

As to clearer beer in the bottle you can achieve that a few ways. The first and easiest way is to let the beer sit on the yeast cake longer and let the beer drop clear.

The second way is to carefully rack the beer, leaving as much trub behind. This is dependent on the first suggestion. If your beer hasn't dropped clear yet your just transferring the trub which will settle to the bottom of your bottle. Unless your shooting for a neipa style this is what you want.

I'm a fan of letting the yeast and trub settle naturally. I don't really see a huge correlation between racking in 7 days and racking in 14 days with regards to aroma loss. I'd even argue that you'll have more risk of off flavors and less clear beer by going to quickly before the beer is ready. That's what I meant by let it finish.

When I do big dry hop beers I usually wait until the beer has hit final gravity and is stable before I begin dry hopping. I do cheat a bit and start the dry hop schedule earlier on beers I've made before. Every fermentation is a bit different but if I've made the beer several times I know a bit more about what to expect from the fermentation. I usually go three weeks from boil to on tap with beers below 1.060. But that's in a conical that I can crash and then into a keg I can carbonate in a few hours. So 5-6 weeks is a reasonable timeline to bottle condition. You could try to push it to 4 weeks once you know your recipe.

One of the keys to a great IPA is a clean crisp dry beer that allows the hops to shine. Allowing the yeast to finish fermentation and reabsorb precursors for off flavors will insure you don't pick up flavors late in the process of conditioning. Yes the secondary fermentation that takes place during carbonation can help reduce those off flavors from happening but that's not a substitute for allowing the yeast finish cleaning up. You may want to buy a wine thief to pull samples. They are cheap and if done correctly you can pull a sample without adding much o2 to the beer. I used to pull a sample and then drop my hydrometer into the thief to read my gravity. Air lock activity is not a sign of fermentation per se so be cautious about relying on that. Yeast produce very little co2 at the end of fermentation but are still actively cleaning up the beer. That's the reason people suggest three days of steady gravity readings to determine that fermentation has ended. Those three days are when the yeast finish up. I suggest you buy the yeast book by White. It's a good read from the Brewers association. The hop book is also a good read. Stan has lots of crazy ideas and interesting suggestions for getting the most from your hops.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I forgot to mention when you are calculating the amount of dextrose to use for the priming sugar addition you should use a something like beer smith or Brewers friend. When you see the temp of the beer field use the warmest temp of your beer post primary not the cold crash temp. Warm beer holds less co2 and it will off gas. This could lead you to add less sugar than required.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

 

[40ozBreWing]

You may want to get a few large water bottles and fill them with water to about 3/4 full and freeze them. The larger mass will melt at a slower rate and give you a little more stability. Cooling below 40 is fine if you can get there with ice. I suspect that will be a bit harder than you think. It'll take a lot of ice to cool 5 gallons 25-30 degrees. Yeast are pretty sensitive to temp changes so just dropping the temp 15-20 degrees should shut them down and help them drop. I can't say this enough, you really need to make sure the yeast is finished up before crashing. Dropping them too soon can cause them to release off flavor precursors back into the beer. I don't think a slow rise back to ambient temps will cause any issues before bottling . However you can bottle it while it's on the cold side and let it warm up to conditioning temps in the bottle. I'd say that's a better plan actually. You'll keep more co2 in suspension with the beer cold which will release into the bottle as it warms rather than into your bottling bucket or fermentor.

As to clearer beer in the bottle you can achieve that a few ways. The first and easiest way is to let the beer sit on the yeast cake longer and let the beer drop clear.

The second way is to carefully rack the beer, leaving as much trub behind. This is dependent on the first suggestion. If your beer hasn't dropped clear yet your just transferring the trub which will settle to the bottom of your bottle. Unless your shooting for a neipa style this is what you want.

I'm a fan of letting the yeast and trub settle naturally. I don't really see a huge correlation between racking in 7 days and racking in 14 days with regards to aroma loss. I'd even argue that you'll have more risk of off flavors and less clear beer by going to quickly before the beer is ready. That's what I meant by let it finish.

When I do big dry hop beers I usually wait until the beer has hit final gravity and is stable before I begin dry hopping. I do cheat a bit and start the dry hop schedule earlier on beers I've made before. Every fermentation is a bit different but if I've made the beer several times I know a bit more about what to expect from the fermentation. I usually go three weeks from boil to on tap with beers below 1.060. But that's in a conical that I can crash and then into a keg I can carbonate in a few hours. So 5-6 weeks is a reasonable timeline to bottle condition. You could try to push it to 4 weeks once you know your recipe.

One of the keys to a great IPA is a clean crisp dry beer that allows the hops to shine. Allowing the yeast to finish fermentation and reabsorb precursors for off flavors will insure you don't pick up flavors late in the process of conditioning. Yes the secondary fermentation that takes place during carbonation can help reduce those off flavors from happening but that's not a substitute for allowing the yeast finish cleaning up. You may want to buy a wine thief to pull samples. They are cheap and if done correctly you can pull a sample without adding much o2 to the beer. I used to pull a sample and then drop my hydrometer into the thief to read my gravity. Air lock activity is not a sign of fermentation per se so be cautious about relying on that. Yeast produce very little co2 at the end of fermentation but are still actively cleaning up the beer. That's the reason people suggest three days of steady gravity readings to determine that fermentation has ended. Those three days are when the yeast finish up. I suggest you buy the yeast book by White. It's a good read from the Brewers association. The hop book is also a good read. Stan has lots of crazy ideas and interesting suggestions for getting the most from your hops.

Dcp / Tung,
I am going to answer/ask follow up questions in part here. I appreciate the help and clarifications.

In regards to both of what you said about temp at bottling, I will let it come back to room temp, it only makes sense. Also, I will try the ice bottle idea to try and keep the cold crash at a more steady temp.

I will be more cognizant of the yeast cleaning up their nasties, e.g. diacytel, etc. I ran into that two batches ago, and am a little concerned on the batch I bottled a week and a half ago. I tried it on Sunday, I believe, and although it had good flavor on the back end (although not hoppy enough) there was an ‘off’ flavor / homebrew taste, or so I think, up front. It was a little sweet and had a ‘malty’ flavor both somewhat similar to the taste I had from my other two batches but much less pronounced. I am hoping I was just tasting green beer---AND THAT IT GOES AWAY. It isn’t horrible by no means, but not what I am going for. I have looked at all of the off flavor articles and blogs and just can’t put my finger on it, nor explain it. I WISH I could have someone with and experience palette taste it---and tell me!!
In this instance, I was in primary 7 days, and secondary 9 days. I will get back with you and let you know if it has changed. If it hasn’t change, or if it still isn’t fully carbed, I will give another week bottle conditioning and then put a 6 pack in the fridge for a few days to cold crash what is in the bottles and see how it tastes.

I have used the priming sugar calculators on my last two batches and one of the first things I bought was a wine thief and, like you D, use it to get my SG reading.

Here is my question / dilemma, and that is how can I check the SG near the end of ‘primary’ ferm, without letting O2 in to the fermenting bucket? I have a standard 7.9 gal bucket. That is why I was thinking of doing a first hop addition when the bubbling slowed way down although I know this is empirical and not measured. The idea being that I crack the lid just enough to slip the hops in and close it up, hoping no O2 gets introduced. Then i would......well, let me propose it this way, it may be easier; then let me know your thoughts:


-After brewing pitch yeast
-Wait until day 4 or 5 and do first hop additions on the waning end of ferm.
-On day 9 or 10 (ferm should surely be done then, without a series of SG checks, yes?), or even day 12 or 14, crack the lid and add the second round of hops, or the “dry hop” stage.
-Wait 3 more days after the second hop addition and cold crash for 24-36 hours.
-Let the beer come back to ambient temp and bottle.

Would this be enough time for the yeast to be completely done? And, since I did not rack to secondary and since I would be anywhere from 12 to 17 days into the process, would I be safe in assuming ferm is done? Without 3 successive days of SG measurements? I have typically done the constant SG measurements past the end of activity in the air lock (and in the two cases I have done it, have hit FG in 5 to 7 days). I don’t mind doing the SG checks, and kinda like doing it but, each time I open that lid I am introducing O2 into the head space. Surely this can be done without risk of oxidation, many others brew like I am without issues. Hell, I have even thought about retrofitting a lid with barbed nipples that I could use one nipple to purge with compressed CO2 ("in") and one nipple to vent it ("out), and then cap them both. Then I know the head space is all CO2----particularly when ferm is done and the yeastie boyz are not emitting anymore CO2.

Again, maybe i am over thinking it.

Thanks guys.

 

[TungstenBeer]

I'll give you my honest opinion.

1. I think you are overthinking it and over-paranoid about the oxidation thing.

-After brewing pitch yeast
-Wait until day 4 or 5 and do first hop additions on the waning end of ferm.
-On day 9 or 10 (ferm should surely be done then, without a series of SG checks, yes?), or even day 12 or 14, crack the lid and add the second round of hops, or the “dry hop” stage.
-Wait 3 more days after the second hop addition and cold crash for 24-36 hours.
-Let the beer come back to ambient temp and bottle.

Would this be enough time for the yeast to be completely done?

2. As long as you have the fermentor in a place where the temperature is comfortable, then I would say yes. But if temperatures are unsteady or if it's a little cold, then it might not be long enough. There are certain strains of yeast that would take much longer than that too - but if you're using an american ale yeast - you should be fine in almost all cases.

That said, there's no reason you can't still use a hydrometer to verify.