Lallemand's Belle Saison and Voss Kveik combination

[Sipina]

I am trying to possibly achieve a bit more complexity in my saisons ...

Anyone tried out this combo? What are your thoughts?

It seems the fermentation temperatures of both yeasts overlap nicely at around 30 degrees celsius; also the voss kveik gives strong fruity esters and it has a lower attenuation (76-82%) than belle saison while belle saison has much higher attenuation (86-94%) due to it's diastaticus nature and it will give some lemony esters and a nice phenolic profile with more aging.

 

[Miraculix]

I am trying to possibly achieve a bit more complexity in my saisons ...

Anyone tried out this combo? What are your thoughts?

It seems the fermentation temperatures of both yeasts overlap nicely at around 30 degrees celsius; also the voss kveik gives strong fruity esters and it has a lower attenuation (76-82%) than belle saison while belle saison has much higher attenuation (86-94%) due to it's diastaticus nature and it will give some lemony esters and a nice phenolic profile with more aging.

I thought about the same. I like to ferment belle around 35c and Voss does also very well at that temp. I'd say go for it and don't forget to let us know about the outcome!

Keep it in the fermenter for at least two weeks, maybe better for three weeks. Belle somehow slows down at the end. It will bring the fg down to near 1.0. you can also open ferment for the first two or three days, that will help with the speed, together with the higher temperature.

 

[Sipina]

Keep it in the fermenter for at least two weeks, maybe better for three weeks. Belle someone's allowed down at the end. It will bring the fg down to near 1.0. you can also open ferment for the first two or three days, that will help with the speed, together with the higher temperature.

That's exactly how I have been working with diastaticus yeasts (belle saison, be-134, farmhouse, M41)) and have had great results so far. Open fermented when at the peak of fermentation and left in the fermenter for 3 weeks. I always get a reading of SG(fg)1.000 - 1.002 with this approach.

Last time I fermented belle saison at around 30 degrees celsius (maybe more) and was quite happy with the result. Another benefit of the belle saison is the supposed strong biotransformation capability which can be used to a advantage of getting a bit more complexity in the finished product.

 

[Miraculix]

That's exactly how I have been working with diastaticus yeasts (belle saison, be-134, M41)) and have had great results so far. Open fermented when at the peak of fermentation and left in the fermenter for 3 weeks. I always get a reading of SG(fg)1.000 - 1.002 with this approach.

Last time I fermented belle saison at around 30 degrees celsius (maybe more) and was quite happy with the result. Another benefit of the belle saison is the supposed strong biotransformation capability which can be used to a advantage of getting a bit more complexity in the finished product.

I tried about 2g/l mash hops last time to up biotransformation, don't know if that actually did something or not, but it surely didn't hurt.

 

[Miraculix]

I want to add that for saisons, my experience is that all the liquid yeasts that I tried were far superior to dry saison yeasts in regards to saison flavour expression. My favourite is up to today imperial rustic, closely followed by wyeast 3724 Belgian saison. Both greatly benefit from the same fermentation schedule that you've described above and from a generous starter obviously.

 

[dmtaylor]

Interesting combo, since Voss is super fast and Belle is super slow. As long as you give it a month to ferment, it should turn out good. But it does seem an odd combo based on fermentation rates.

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting combo, since Voss is super fast and Belle is super slow. As long as you give it a month to ferment, it should turn out good. But it does seem an odd combo based on fermentation rates.

Belle is only super slow when not pampered correctly. It really wants higher temperatures at minimum 30c. Plus it really likes open fermentation. If you keep temperatures high and oxygen available, it will speed things up cosiderably. Can be done in two weeks. Still slower than kveik, but no problem, kveik leaves a lot on the table that belle will munch on afterwards or which belle will make accessible for the kveik by excreting enzymes.

 

[Sipina]

I want to add that for saisons, my experience is that all the liquid yeasts that I tried were far superior to dry saison yeasts in regards to saison flavour expression. My favourite is up to today imperial rustic, closely followed by wyeast 3724 Belgian saison. Both greatly benefit from the same fermentation schedule that you've described above and from a generous starter obviously.

Thanks for recommendation.
Have you tried lallemand's Farmhouse? I think you might like it!

 

[eliastheodosis]

If anything you could offset the pitches by a day or two. Belle first for 1-2 days and then Voss. It's a variable to tweak at least. Belle might take a while to wrap up the fermentation but if you can get ferm peaks to align reasonably then it should be very interesting. I think Belle character gets cleaner over the temp range so another option is to start low with Belle for a couple days if you want a different profile and then as it ramps pitch Voss. Let it climb in temp, clean up, and creep to basically 1.002 over a couple more weeks with Belle and you're set.

I agree with @Miraculix about liquid options, though. I think that's probably the better path IMO. I think Imperial Rustic is the Blaugies strain, which is beautiful and complex and reliable. My favorite go to. I went to the Blaugies restaurant last year too and it was one of the best experiences of my life. The Dupont strain is always fun, if a bit temperamental. Bootleg Biology also offers a couple other interesting strains. Saison Parfait is a very characterful blend, just watch out for the sulfur and make sure to let it blow off, especially if you ferment under 25C. Their Glazen Toren yeast has a really pretty cakey lemon curd profile if you want something different. Plus, you're supporting Jeff and all his madness. If you want something more readily available then try Saisonstein from Omega. If you can get your hands on it then the Pakruojis Lithuanian Farmhouse yeast from The Yeast Bay is also fantastic and wonderfully complex.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for recommendation.
Have you tried lallemand's Farmhouse? I think you might like it!

I actually have a pack of it in my fridge, which I bought shortly after its release. Somehow I haven't brewed with it yet. Maybe a combination with belle would be good to up the attenuation?

 

[Sipina]

I actually have a pack of it in my fridge, which I bought shortly after its release. Somehow I haven't brewed with it yet. Maybe a combination with belle would be good to up the attenuation?

I suggest to try it on it's own first. Good attenuation can still be achieved with mashing schedule.

 

[Miraculix]

I suggest to try it on it's own first. Good attenuation can still be achieved with mashing schedule.

Yep, that was the plan. First round is a stepped up starter with about a quarter of the pack to get rid of the drying shock. Hochkurz mash plus simple sugars in form of invert no.1.

If that results in a nice beer, maybe next time a mix with belle.