Kegging - Show me the light

[ol-hazza]

So I'm on the brink of getting into kegging and want to utilise the knowledge on here to make sure I get the right stuff. I'm also planning on starting with the basics (cost constraints) and building up a bigger/better set.

I have a plan and a few questions so here we go.

1, Basic equipment list. Keg (corny 19l), beer line (5m) gas line (length doesn't matter?), in and out quick disconnects, Picnic tap, Regulator, sodastream cannister and adaptor, fridge or freezer, hose clamps.

What have I missed here? What would you change?

2, Is a 60l (400g) sodastream cannister big enough? How many kegs can I expect it to do? (including purging etc?)

3, Chest freezer vs stand up freezer vs stand up fridge? (realistically i'm not likely to have more than 3-4 kegs).

4, When buying kegs (second hand) what are the important things to look for and ask about? I will be buying from OHBS so mail ordering. Are there certain types to avoid? checks to ask about? (pressure testing etc).

5, Considering the sodastream cannisters are quite small is it worth naturally carbonating the beer in the keg? are there any other ways to reduce co2 use when kegging?

6, Why didn't i restrict this to one question per number? Should I reformat it for your convenience?

 

[day_trippr]

1 - If using a freezer, add a controller to your list. And make sure the beer line inside diameter is equivalent to 3/16".

2 - Is 400 grams really equivalent to 60 liters at STP? I'd have guessed half that, but even at the higher value, you'd use up most of a fill bringing one full keg up to 2.5 volumes carbonation. I'd either get a larger cylinder or definitely plan on natural carbonation.

3. They all have their pluses and minuses, and any will do. Pick one that'll give you a little room to grow.

4. Holding pressure is obviously telling, beyond that it's all about aesthetics vs acquisition cost. Get a full set of new O-rings sent with each keg.

5. See 2.

6. No worries, this was a lot easier than sorting through a wall o' text...

Cheers!

 

[ol-hazza]

2 - Is 400 grams really equivalent to 60 liters at STP?

The 60l refers to how much soda it can carbonate I believe, no idea how this would relate to STP (which i just had to google).

 

[day_trippr]

Oh, heck, if 400 grams can bring 60 liters of soda up to its high carb level it should be able to carb up and dispense three kegs or so. Could be practical, depending on how dear the refills on such a small cylinder are...

Cheers!

 

[ol-hazza]

Refills here are $25 (on the 400g), and $70 for the cannister and adaptor new, vs $280+ for a decent bottle that will cost half as much to fill up.
It would probably be the first thing i upgraded, but can can halve the initial expenditure.

 

[Wldthang87]

Have you looked at getting a used bottle?
Two weeks ago I purchased a 5lbfire extinguisher from a shop that hydro tests and fills them. The guys grabbed a old extinguisher they had, hydro tested it, stuck a regular high pressure brass valve on it and fill it with co2 all for $75 Canadian. Which is like $53 us currency.. And a refill costs $5. If you want I'll ship you one. You'd just need it filed.

 

[ol-hazza]

Have you looked at getting a used bottle?
Two weeks ago I purchased a 5lbfire extinguisher from a shop that hydro tests and fills them. The guys grabbed a old extinguisher they had, hydro tested it, stuck a regular high pressure brass valve on it and fill it with co2 all for $75 Canadian. Which is like $53 us currency.. And a refill costs $5. If you want I'll ship you one. You'd just need it filed.

Im in new zealand which is a, awesome and b, means alot of thngs are outrageously expensive.

The price above was for a second hand bottle, full with a new test on it plus shipping.

No doubt i could search around and save a dollar or 10. But a good gas bottle is looking like costing as much as the rest of a kegging setup combined.

One of the problems where i live is that the local engineering shop which deals in gas has a contract with a swappa-bottle scheme where you buy in, get a bottle and then just swap it dor a full one. So they look for any excuse not to fill a personally owned bottle. This is just rumour though.

Oh and if you can send me a bottle for $50 the we are on like donkey kong

 

[Wldthang87]

Fair enough, but I'm going to look into how much it would be to ship from me to you. And get back to you, I have a friend who works for a shipping company and gets a descent discount

 

[ol-hazza]

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

im just putting this here for safekeeping.

 

[Wldthang87]

i checked into shipping, its a killer, $944.00 to ship from my city to you, sorry but i wanted to try.

 

[Wldthang87]

deleted

 

[ol-hazza]

Yeh that sounds about right, can be a real pain living here sometimes.

 

[Wldthang87]

I also have the option of shipping from the state, but even a small package is $100.

 

[ol-hazza]

no worries, i bet they would have different fittings as well to make it difficult

 

[dyqik]

You can save a good amount of CO2 (about 1/3-1/4 as much CO2 used) by naturally carbing your kegs, just like a big bottle. Just use about half as much priming sugar as you would for bottling because of the lower headspace. Then you just need CO2 to push the beer out, and maybe for purging (I just purge the headspace after filling - the yeast should scavenge some oxygen during carbing). Naturally carbing takes about the same time as set and forget carbing in my experience.

Look for other welding supply shops as a source for CO2 fills. Bars and welders can't be paying that much, or they'd all be out of business.

 

[ol-hazza]

Yeh im going to set up with soda stream and natural carbonation at first and then move to a decent bottle.

The local retailers tend to be set up through rental schemes which work out economically if you are going through a lot of gas but not so much for low use, and in order to get you to buy in they will refuse to fill a bottle that has a dent or scratch in it for individuals (its a total scam).

I think its just a matter of finding the retailers who will do refills, who are out of town. But I'm going to have back up soda stream when I get to that point anyway so I can afford to run out of gas for a week or so.

 

[ol-hazza]

Dont want to leave everyone hanging, so here is the journey thus far with my adventures in kegging.

On a trip to australia managed to pick up a second hand regulator, quick disconects and a check valve for next to nothing. Score!

Then found a decently priced recon corny ($110 nzd) a sodastream adaptor and sdastream cannister and some beer line. All kicking ass and chewing bubble gum am i right or what!

So i brew up an arogant bastard clone, which i try to naturally carb. Gets cold, i get impatient so im gonna force carb this sucker. With a cannister refill costing th same amount as about 2 bottles of decent beer im gonna be saving money.

Unfortunately the adaptor is playing up, at first its not engaging, then its not closing. Finally get it about right and my spanners arent the right size n i cant lock it in. Get the missus into help out and force the bastard shut. Hook her up n we are away laughing.

Oh no we arent, i forgot that the beer line i ordered is too small for all of my fittings bar the check valve, so yeh bugger off to the hardware store for some generic vinyl hose, great fit on everything but the check valve which is literally been forced entirely into the new bigger hose, which i have heaps off. 10m of it because i have been on the calculators and i knows my hose.

Anyway where were we, oh yeh we are away laughing. Give it the old soapy water test, tighten some connections money in the bank safe as houses. Until iCheck it the next day. Empty. No pressure. Nada. Oh and no money in the bank dr a refil due to a surprise weekend away to support everybodies favourite rugby team the highlanders win the super rugby championship for the first time ever.

Fast forward a week some lesson learned, spanners purchased, cannister refilled, realisation the cylinder nipple only needs to be engaged on the very last tightening turn and some plumbers tape to help tighten her all up n we are away laughing.

Again with the laughing, gotta stop doing that, its been biting me in the ass. Am i patient enough to set and forget. Am i bollocks. So initially i just cranked the pressure for short periods of time n didnt really know what was happening, under carbed, do some rsearch, learn about the rocking method.

Sit my baby on my knee, crank her up to 2 bar, wait until the gas stops coming in, switch it off and rock a bye baby. Goes down to 0.8, which is 12psi giver or take and repeat.

3 times and i can only get it down to 1 bar, pour off a pint, bit to much head but hey she needs to settle right, leave over night. Away laughing.

Dammit hazza learn your damn lessons boy. Course we arent laughing. Because although i have nigh on perfect carbonation do you think i can pour a pint out of my 9 m of 6mm line, course i cant. And its getting really annoying converting feet to meters, mm to "s and psi to bar and injust gave a mate glass of foam because im getting no action at .8 bar so need to crank up the pressure to serve and waaaah.

Beer line is ful of co2 bubbles and back at the correct pressure i cant get a full glass poured before it runs out of steam and turns to foam in teh tube.

So now i have shortened the line to 3m / 6m. 3m is giving me too much foam so trying the 6m next. Im running out of sobriety in order to keep my testing up though which is a real shame.

Was carbing at 4°c but was too cold for serving so have put it up to 5 and probably going to go a bit warmer, mid winter here ya see but want to zero in on this one before playing round with more factors.

Oh and the beer is quite good, not a very good clone, made a mess of my timings for my late additions and its a bit low on the aroma, as well as lacking the yeastyness of the orginal. Wish i could do a side by side but its still good beer. Maybe next time forget the gelatin finnings. Also has a bit of alcohol heat in the aftertaste so dial down the ferm temp, or this may age out.

So no questions, just venting my pain and wishing yall would go metric.

 

[ol-hazza]

So 6 meters is the goods, but looking at 25-30 secont pints. No biggie really. That solty's calculator is good for FA though.

 

[Iseneye]

I too know the pains of reading american threads while having to pay NZ prices. People easily getting second hand kegs for $20 while we have to pay around $100+ hurts a bit.

To your questions:

-if you're doing a bunch of kegging splash out and get the big C02 cannister rather than mucking around with sodastreams. I'm in Nelson and got a 20kg (I think) C02 canister from Nelson Fire Protection Ltd. Not sure if you have anything similar in the Naki. They do refills with out any hassles. I too had a look at other gas places (BOC) but they were really expensive swap systems.

-I don't do the fast force carbing like you did because I'm never in a hurry and don't want the risk of over-carbing. Set it at 12PSI (around 0.8-0.9 bar) at 4-5 degrees and it's moderately carbonated after 1 week, 90% carbonated at 2 weeks and fully carbed at 3 weeks.

-6m beer line is going to give you a slow pour as you found out. General mantra on this forum is 10' / 3m or a touch more (depending on pressure). I have four keg lines at 3m and a bit and they pour well. It keeps the C02 in solution so much that I need to do a vigorous pour to get head buildup. I haven't timed it but a pint pour would probably be around 8-10 seconds. Definitely not the 25-30 seconds you get which will be due to the line length.

 

[ol-hazza]

A big cylinder is on the cards, just a matter of forking out for it. Found a place in Nelson who sells them ($270 for 5kg) and have recently found out that Chubb Fire services will fill them here, so thats ideal.

What's the ID of your beer line? Mines 6mm and when I upgrade I will probably go a bit smaller to try and make the length more manageable. Or it maybe that i got my beer line at Bunnings

 

[Iseneye]

A big cylinder is on the cards, just a matter of forking out for it. Found a place in Nelson who sells them ($270 for 5kg) and have recently found out that Chubb Fire services will fill them here, so thats ideal.

What's the ID of your beer line? Mines 6mm and when I upgrade I will probably go a bit smaller to try and make the length more manageable. Or it maybe that i got my beer line at Bunnings

That's probably the same place I got them from (Nelson Fire Protection Ltd.) A big long grey tank. I thought it was heavier than 5kg, more like 10kg - might be wrong.

I believe my beer lines are 3/16". I got the skinny hardish vinyl ones from brewshop. I notice they don't stock them anymore and have the 5.5mm ones which I think are too big.

6mm is around 1/4" which requires longer lines. If you have the 1/4" ones then maybe your current lengths are fine. The 10' recommendation is based on 3/16" / 4.8mm ID lines.

 

[ol-hazza]

Yeh luckily I'm all go now. The calculator I used said 9m to balance but it just wouldn't flow at pressure so I cut it to 3 and 6. Will upgrade to smaller line when I get my new kegs