Just as I had feared from my sinking yeast

[stavale8099]

This is the last time I pitch dry yeast (S-04). I've done this before where I just sprinkle it on top and let it incubate for about 20 minutes, but this time after I checked it it was nowhere to be seen. It had sunk. First thought was that there was no way I was going to get any fermentation - low and behold, 24h later there is no kareusen to be found just my jet black sweet oatmeal stout wort (1.05).
I added yeast AND diammonium phosph. to the boil because I was afraid tthat they wouldn't have enough nutrients anyways (my local brew store was out of smack-packs - I was originally going to pitch 1084). So, it's also possible that there was not enough zinc.
It's been 24h - I'm thinking of going to the store to see if they HAVE a smack pack or at least some ZnSO4 that I can add with a new pack of S-04 (which I will rehydrate first).
Also as I was checking the wort to see if I could see any fermentation, a piece of the lid (brand new...been used 2x) fell off of the fermentation bucket and into the wort. Of COURSE it doesn't float...I'm hoping there was still enough sanitizer on it from yesterday where it doesn't completely contaminate my wort. I guess I could re-boil for 20 min. if I feel like there is an issue...
Also aeration might be a problem. I don't have an aerator so I might just put the lid on tight, pick up the 5 gal fermentation bucket and shake it.

What do you guys think? It was my first AG batch too - what a pain in the *ss for multiple reasons (see my other thread).

Thanks
Eric

 

[Cbaddad]

Wait!!!

It

Will

Work.

Back

Away

From

The

Bucket.

 

[Cyclman]

+1 on waiting. Relax, have a homebrew.

I do recommend oxygen stones, found they dramatically improved my fermentations.

 

[stavale8099]

Haha....ok ill give it another couple days....hopefully it's not contaminated by the piece that fell in. In the past I've at least seen some signs of ferm after a day so I guess I just had some premature freaking out. We'll see what tomorrow holds!

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

Fermentation can take up to 72hrs to SEE any activity. Give it time.

 

[stavale8099]

Ok thanks...ill give it a couple days and hope for the best

 

[eastoak]

let us know what happens.

 

[annasdadhockey]

So you're saying it sunk to the bottom? Not the bottom..., you mean where there are no sugars to be had? Surely there is no way the yeast will survive.

You'll be fine, relax.

Keep us posted, please.

 

[Hermit]

Was the wort clear or cloudy? If it dropped clear then that is bad. Yeast will cloud the wort when active.

 

[eastoak]

Was the wort clear or cloudy? If it dropped clear then that is bad. Yeast will cloud the wort when active.

this is imprecise. the wort will become cloudy from active fermentation after the yeast start fermenting the wort not the minute they sink into the wort. it is unusual in my experience that the dry yeast would all sink into the wort, i usually have a layer of dry yeast held up on top by surface tension.

 

[Hermit]

the wort will become cloudy from active fermentation after the yeast start fermenting the wort

Hence the question. This is one of the reasons I like glass.

 

[stavale8099]

I'm not going to open the bucket to check the gravity until tomorrow which will be 72h - no activity in the bubbler yet though. Last time I used S-04 and sprinkled it on top for 20 min I noticed it start to rehydrate then I stirred it in. This time I sprinkled over the top of the entire wort then let it sit for 15 min. When I lifted the lid to check on it it was completely gone and the wort was just jet black (oatmeal stout). Temp was ~65-70 degrees and the wort was very sweet. I had added yeast and diamm phoph to the boil, too. My vorlauf was poor and I had a lot of debris in my runnings so I know that settled out too. I hope the yeast didn't get caught up in that mess on the bottom. The only thing I was really worried about was lack of zinc but I hear that is debatable anyways.
I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll see something by tomorrow evening...

 

[stavale8099]

UPDATE:

Ok it's been about 72h now and I cracked open the bucket to have one more look. It looks like we have fermentation! See pic attached...it's not enough (so far) to make anything come out of the bubbler, AND the gravity is still the same but I'll attribute that to the yeast having just gotten started. I can see some CO2 coming up out of the small karusen. Hopefully it will be raging here shortly. May not though - my bubbler is duct taped to the bucket and the hole is covered that way since the rubber piece fell off my lid and to the bottom. The wort still smells sweet so I'm going to attribute what I saw to the yeast and not to contamination...I'll check the gravity again this weekend and see if things are progressing.

 

[Jipper]

stavale8099,

Often times buckets won't create a perfect seal, and you'll never see fermentation through the airlock. If you've used this bucket before and have seen fermentation through the airlock, then disregard that. We get a lot of customers that think fermentation isn't happening because they don't see bubbles, and we ask if they're fermenting in a bucket, and 9 times out of 10 the answer is "yes". They take the lid off and wah-lah, krausen!

Out of curiosity, what was your mash temperature? You mentioned this is your first AG batch - did you mash high?

Hope this one turns out well for you!

Cheers!

 

[helibrewer]

Now put the lid on and leave it alone for at least a week.

 

[stavale8099]

stavale8099,

Often times buckets won't create a perfect seal, and you'll never see fermentation through the airlock. If you've used this bucket before and have seen fermentation through the airlock, then disregard that. We get a lot of customers that think fermentation isn't happening because they don't see bubbles, and we ask if they're fermen

Cheers!

Hey Jipper,
Yes indeed it was my first AG batch - and I have used the bucket quite often but never with S-04...I have used dry yeast (and pitched dry) before but never saw it sink like it did this time. I'm used to using smack packs and seeing fermentation after 24-48h so this was a new experience
My mash temp was actually about 152-154...I had a new MLT and forgot to account for the dead space beneath the false-bottom so I threw in an accidental 140 degree protein rest for abotu 20 minutes while I heated up more water. Then mashed @ 154 for an hour. The wort was very sweet before the boil and the BG indicated pretty good conversion. The pitching temp was good too so before I posted the thread to get thoughts from others I was really at a loss to explain why things weren't progressing more quickly.

 

[stavale8099]

Now put the lid on and leave it alone for at least a week.

Done - thanks

 

[catdaddy66]

I'm not going to open the bucket to check the gravity until tomorrow which will be 72h - no activity in the bubbler yet though. Last time I used S-04 and sprinkled it on top for 20 min I noticed it start to rehydrate then I stirred it in. This time I sprinkled over the top of the entire wort then let it sit for 15 min. When I lifted the lid to check on it it was completely gone and the wort was just jet black (oatmeal stout). Temp was ~65-70 degrees and the wort was very sweet. I had added yeast and diamm phoph to the boil, too. My vorlauf was poor and I had a lot of debris in my runnings so I know that settled out too. I hope the yeast didn't get caught up in that mess on the bottom. The only thing I was really worried about was lack of zinc but I hear that is debatable anyways.
I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll see something by tomorrow evening...

I see from the pic you have some fermentation going, but when I read that you had added yeast to the boil I thought you had killed them (nothing survives in boiling anything!). The next pitch must be what is doing the work.

Don't scare me like that!

 

[stavale8099]

Ha yes I had a couple packs and threw one in the boil for nutrients ;-) sorry for the scare!

 

[stavale8099]

Took a peek to measure the gravity and it's hit 1.01 - estimated FG. I am going to leave it in there for 2 more weeks to condition and get the flavors to mellow out. Still a very potent bitterness that really needs to go away. May also be the yeast-y taste that hasn't settled out yet haha

 

[PeteNMA]

My last but one brew was fermented with S-04 and that took three days to take off, like you I just pitched the yeast directly onto the wort. My last brew used T-58 which I rehydrated first, and that took off within 12 hours.

If I use dry S-04 again, I'll definitely rehydrate it first. I saved a few portions of the fermenter cake so I'll be making liquid starters the next few times I use it, which should let me get closer to ideal pitching conditions next time.

 

[Chadwick]

rehydrating S-04 before pitching will create the need for a very good blow-off system. I say this from my experience using it recently. With one batch I rehydrated the s-04 and by the next morning the whole lid very nearly blew off. The fermentation could be described as violent. Another batch, with even higher starting gravity, I just pitched it dry. Fermentation was a lot more mild.

Thats my experience with this yeast. Whatever its worth.

 

[stavale8099]

I've heard the same about rehydrating it - a local brewer uses it all the time and always pitches it dry because of that exact reason!

 

[Hermit]

Instead of pitching dry and killing half of it off just rehydrate a lesser amount.

 

[eastoak]

Instead of pitching dry and killing half of it off just rehydrate a lesser amount.

either way you lose yeast in the process so i would rather (in your scenario) pitch all of it dry rather than rehydrate a lesser amount, where i'll be losing yeast in the rehydration anyway. usually i pitch the entire packet dry onto the wort, (occasionally) i rehydrate the whole packet. best case, when i rack a beer into a keg i plan a brew for that week then scoop up a 1/4 cup of slurry from the previous beer and pitch it into the next beer and that works the best for me.

 

[Hermit]

either way you lose yeast in the process so i would rather (in your scenario) pitch all of it dry rather than rehydrate a lesser amount, where i'll be losing yeast in the rehydration anyway. usually i pitch the entire packet dry onto the wort, (occasionally) i rehydrate the whole packet. best case, when i rack a beer into a keg i plan a brew for that week then scoop up a 1/4 cup of slurry from the previous beer and pitch it into the next beer and that works the best for me.

Pitch the whole amount into a 'starter' pour off what you don't use and put it in the fridge.

 

[eastoak]

Pitch the whole amount into a 'starter' pour off what you don't use and put it in the fridge.

a dry yeast starter? or are you referring to liquid yeast? one of the reasons i use dry yeast is either because i didn't make a starter or i don't want to make a starter. the yeast count in a packet of dry yeast is much higher than a liquid yeast packet/vial which is why some die off is tolerable. anyway....

 

[Hermit]

a dry yeast starter? or are you referring to liquid yeast? one of the reasons i use dry yeast is either because i didn't make a starter or i don't want to make a starter. the yeast count in a packet of dry yeast is much higher than a liquid yeast packet/vial which is why some die off is tolerable. anyway....

For the pro craft brewer yeast is usually a considerable expense. They generally re-pitch when they can which is why I find stavale8099's "I've heard the same about rehydrating it - a local brewer uses it all the time and always pitches it dry because of that exact reason!" puzzling.

In your case I'm not saying an actual starter. Rehydrate and pour some off to make a starter with next time. Often times I oversize my starter to have enough for my next starter. For me it beats harvesting from the fermenter.

 

[eastoak]

For the pro craft brewer yeast is usually a considerable expense. They generally re-pitch when they can which is why I find stavale8099's "I've heard the same about rehydrating it - a local brewer uses it all the time and always pitches it dry because of that exact reason!" puzzling.

In your case I'm not saying an actual starter. Rehydrate and pour some off to make a starter with next time. Often times I oversize my starter to have enough for my next starter. For me it beats harvesting from the fermenter.

unless it's a specialty yeast i don't save a starter for later, US-05 is cheap and easy and for me scooping out of the yeast cake beats anything else.