Is it possible to make good bottle carbed IPAs?

[The_Glue]

I have went great lengths to produce a goodish IPA but after about 1.5 years i still have not produced anything getting close to the commercial ones. I use áll the standard and advanced methods out there but something is still off with my bitterness and flavor.
Is it actually possible to make something like a SN Torpedo or Celebration Ale with bottle carbing or it is only achievable with kegging?
Is it possible that the multiple shipping and storing methods until the hop gets to me (i mean i live in the eu, hops get repackaged and stuff until they get to me)
oxidizes them or destroys then in some other way? I mean I store them in a freezer but they spend days at roomtemp during shipping, maybe I freezer burned them all during the 1.5 years?

(btw most of my stuff smells and tastes how I imagine good beer in the primary but they took a slight nosedive after 2 weeks in the bottle)

 

[madscientist451]

The quick answer is yes.
But it's hard to tell what your specific problem is.
Put in the recipe, specific ingredients (including names of malting company) type of hops, buying in bulk or individual packages, the specifics of your process, starting and ending gravity, yeast you are using, fermentation temperature, and more
about what you think is wrong with the beer.

 

[jschein]

If it smells and tastes about right prior to bottling then look at your bottling process. Is your bottling bucket scratched? Are the bottles properly cleaned and sanitized? Are you using old hoses from fermenter to bucket? Are the filled bottles stored in a dark place while cabonating? Are you introducing a lot of oxygen when going from primary to bottling?

 

[The_Glue]

The quick answer is yes.
But it's hard to tell what your specific problem is.
Put in the recipe, specific ingredients (including names of malting company) type of hops, buying in bulk or individual packages, the specifics of your process, starting and ending gravity, yeast you are using, fermentation temperature, and more
about what you think is wrong with the beer.

Water: tapwater with calculated amount of phosporic acid added to get mash ph around 5.4, 0.1g of metabisulphite added to neutralize chlorine sometimes with additional sulfates added. The water is pretty hard btw, around 100-150 Ca, 80 Cl and 100-300 So4 depending on minerals added.

Malt: I going by the clone recipes most of the time but i tried 2row, plisner and maris otter single malt recipes too but sometimes i tried like 20% speciality malts in the recipe.
All of my malt is premilled in the shop btw, i store them in a dry, cold place in bags but sometimes my malt is milled like 1-2 months in advance. 90% of my malts are from Weyermann, the Maris Otter is from Crisp Malting.

Hops: I think the owner of the only homebrew store in the country buys them in bulk and then repackages them. Sometimes i buy from a nearby country where they use vacuum package at least. I store them in a freezer, sometimes they spend two months before they get used in the freezer, nowadays i use them at once to avoid oxidation of the hops.

Process: I mash BIAB, 60min around 150F, sometimes i dont even sparge. I mash with a ratio of 3-4. (3-4l water to 1kg malt) Most of the time i add water during the mash to keep up the mash temp so i start with a ratio of like 3 and then go up to 4 by the end.
I do 60 min heavy boils, my boil off is pretty strong, to get 10l of beer by the end i need to boil around 16l of water overall. (this means i add around 10l of mash water to the kettle and about 4l of top up water from the same treated water bucket and then add about 2-3 liter during the boil)
I add a lot of whirlpool hops at around 190F and let them steep for 15-20 mins. Then i put the covered kettle into ice water which cools it down to pitching temp in around 30 mins.

Fermentation: I use only US05, i rehydrate it and pitch a whole packet into 2.5-3 gals of beer @ 70F.
I not really aerate by shaking, i just pour in the beer from the kettle into the fermenter from high above to get some splashing.
I sanitize the bucket with Star-San, it us full of foam when i add the beer.
I ferment with a swamp cooler which stays around 65-70F during fermentation. After two weeks primary i add the dryhops, i let them stay for 4-5 days. My fermentations are pretty fast and the beer smells "Pretty" during the process, i dont get the dying US05 estery smells anymore i used to get in the beginning.

Bottling: I use a sanitized auto-syphon with a bottling wand conencted to the end of the hose and bottle directly into the bottles to avoid oxigenation. I add boiled sugar to the bottles individually measured for the right carb levels.

 

[The_Glue]

If it smells and tastes about right prior to bottling then look at your bottling process. Is your bottling bucket scratched? Are the bottles properly cleaned and sanitized? Are you using old hoses from fermenter to bucket? Are the filled bottles stored in a dark place while cabonating? Are you introducing a lot of oxygen when going from primary to bottling?

I described my bottling process in the post above this one.
(In short i dont use a bottling bucket, i put the bottles into a bucket full of star-san water, i swap the hoses after 2-3 bottling sessions, i store them in a dark place.)

 

[jschein]

You say nosedive, can you describe the off flavors you get?

 

[The_Glue]

You say nosedive, can you describe the off flavors you get?

At 2 weeks in the bottle i can still smell and taste the US05 esters (which were absent at the end of the 2 weeks in the primary, they reappeared during bottle fermentation) but that is not really relevant.

At week 3-4 the the beer tastes and smells ester free.
The aroma gets weaker and even changes during this time. Like once i had a Citra smash which really smelled like lemons and had a general freshness and bite during bottling but turned catty during its three weeks in the bottle.
Recently i made a beer with huge amounts of El Dorado dryhop, this smelled like womans floral perfume during bottling and reduced into a weaker, maltier and sweeter version of itself.

Taste: most of my beers turn out more bitter than the recipe would suggest. Also you can feel that it is just not commercial level yet. It is not a definitive fault, just a feeling. I like to blame it on the strong attenuation of the overpitched US05 (i consistently get around 83% attenuation) and the huge sulfate levels in the water but maybe it is something else. Maybe i have some kind of "soft" infection going on? I dont get gushers or this taste doesn really chnage during a span of 3-6 months in the bottle.

Once i removed dryhops from a beer, put them in the freezer (they were dripping wet) stored them for 2-3 months in the freezer and reused them in a beer as ittering hops. Now the aftertaste and bitterness i got in that beer was like a stronger version of what i get in my "normal" beers and that is why i thought that maybe i shouldnt freeze the hops i bought in the store?

 

[unionrdr]

I do pb/pm biab. I think your mash temp of 150F is a little low. I mash @ 153-155F most of the time to get more mouth feel. Then dunk sparge them minutes with my nylon bag in another kettle containing the 170F sparge water so I can stir the grains while the timer is set to 10 minutes. Just stir a minute or so, cover & let it sit the remainder of the time on the timer. Drain & add the sparge wort to the main wort for total boil volume.
I also give the beer enough time in primary to reach a stable FG, then another 3-7 days to settle out clear or slightly misty before bottling. Also, try to keep your fermenter's internal temps in the mid to high 60's for less ester production. I don't reuse hops muself. You might be getting some funk from reusing them?

 

[The_Glue]

I do pb/pm biab. I think your mash temp of 150F is a little low. I mash @ 153-155F most of the time to get more mouth feel. Then dunk sparge them minutes with my nylon bag in another kettle containing the 170F sparge water so I can stir the grains while the timer is set to 10 minutes. Just stir a minute or so, cover & let it sit the remainder of the time on the timer. Drain & add the sparge wort to the main wort for total boil volume.
I also give the beer enough time in primary to reach a stable FG, then another 3-7 days to settle out clear or slightly misty before bottling. Also, try to keep your fermenter's internal temps in the mid to high 60's for less ester production. I don't reuse hops muself. You might be getting some funk from reusing them?

Yeah i think my mash temps are kinda low. Especially during the end, by the time it gets into the boil the temp went down to like 140-130F. (it was around 150 in the previous 50 minutes though)

I think the ester production got as low as possible with my method (rehydration, overpitching, yeast food, controlled temps) in the primary, i really cant smell it after 7 days in the primary, they only appear in the bottles during bottle carbing but that is probably the reason why everyone says that the minimum time is 3 weeks in the bottle.

I reused hops only once and that had a bad impact on the beer but all my other beers used fresh hops.

 

[unionrdr]

Overpitching can lead to weaker yeast cells, as the available food supply won't generally be enough to go around. Rehydrating is always good, but try pitching the rehydrate at high krausen for less lag time & quicker fermentation. Try pitching closer to the needed amount of yeast cells without over pitching. That might help with your ester problem as well.

 

[joshesmusica]

If the flavor is stronger on the reused hops, it could very well be some oxidation happening to your hops, or during your bottling process.

 

[unionrdr]

Or some combination of used hop funk & over-pitching.

 

[The_Glue]

Or some combination of used hop funk & over-pitching.

Is using a whole packet of US05 into 3 gallons of beer is actually overpitching?
It is less beer than what is written on the packet but on the other hand going by some calculators i probably still underpitch even with the 3gal/packet ratio.

 

[blackbeer]

maybe try something like this:

mash at 154-ish
use 90% maris otter, 5% crystal 60 and 5% carapils
use a clean bittering hop like magnum at 30 min and then pound the hell out of it with flavor/aroma hops at 15, 5 and 0. shoot for an ibu/og ratio of around .75/1 or 1/1. primary for 3 weeks and then pound it again with aroma hops for 5 days and then bottle it with enough corn sugar to get about 2.1 c02. only leave an inch of head space in bottles.

your water could be extracting some harshness from your hops on a long boil. i had the same problem years ago on municipal water and never really got it right. now i'm on a well and i don't have that problem.

 

[unionrdr]

It could easily be over pitching for some styles when rehydrated. You retain more cells from dry yeast by rehydrating versus pitching dry. Especially for 3 gallons in my opinion.

 

[Minky]

Taste: most of my beers turn out more bitter than the recipe would suggest. Also you can feel that it is just not commercial level yet. It is not a definitive fault, just a feeling. I like to blame it on the strong attenuation of the overpitched US05 (i consistently get around 83% attenuation) and the huge sulfate levels in the water but maybe it is something else. Maybe i have some kind of "soft" infection going on? I dont get gushers or this taste doesn really chnage during a span of 3-6 months in the bottle.

It sounds like you may have more than one glitch in your process. I will address only the excess bitterness. You don't mention your hop schedule, but this was the source of many a failure in my early attempts at "hoppy" beers. It's actually pretty easy to add too many hops in your early bittering additions. You may want to ease up on the bittering hops and concentrate on the later additions. That's where all the yummy hop flavor happens!

 

[The_Glue]

maybe try something like this:

mash at 154-ish
use 90% maris otter, 5% crystal 60 and 5% carapils
use a clean bittering hop like magnum at 30 min and then pound the hell out of it with flavor/aroma hops at 15, 5 and 0. shoot for an ibu/og ratio of around .75/1 or 1/1. primary for 3 weeks and then pound it again with aroma hops for 5 days and then bottle it with enough corn sugar to get about 2.1 c02. only leave an inch of head space in bottles.

your water could be extracting some harshness from your hops on a long boil. i had the same problem years ago on municipal water and never really got it right. now i'm on a well and i don't have that problem.

I have brewed some pretty similar recipes. I have never tried shorter bittering hop boils and softer water.
You cant buy RO/distilled water in my country but they sell a bottled water which looks quite soft at least compared to my water. Here are the stats:

Ca 36ppm
Mg 13ppm
SO4 19ppm
HCO3 150ppm
all others are below 2ppm

Should i try this water for a brew session?

On the other hand Heady Topper uses super hard water. Though he uses isomerized hop extract for bittering so i dont know.

 

[The_Glue]

It sounds like you may have more than one glitch in your process. I will address only the excess bitterness. You don't mention your hop schedule, but this was the source of many a failure in my early attempts at "hoppy" beers. It's actually pretty easy to add too many hops in your early bittering additions. You may want to ease up on the bittering hops and concentrate on the later additions. That's where all the yummy hop flavor happens!

In my latest brews i shooted for around 1:1 OG:IBU ratio.
I have not skipped bittering additions yet (though i might should try it in the future) but my latest brews went like this:
40-50 IBU of 60 min hops, ~3.5oz (for a 5 gallon batch) whirlpool hops and ~3.5oz dry hops for an 5 gallon batch.

 

[Minky]

In my latest brews i shooted for around 1:1 OG:IBU ratio.
I have not skipped bittering additions yet (though i might should try it in the future) but my latest brews went like this:
40-50 IBU of 60 min hops, ~3.5oz (for a 5 gallon batch) whirlpool hops and ~3.5oz dry hops for an 5 gallon batch.

Try cutting down your 60 min. hops by half, and making up your IBU's in the last 30 minutes of the boil. Or you could do as blackbeer suggests, and move them all into the last 30 min. of the boil. You'll use more hops, but you'll get more hoppy goodness.

 

[Qhrumphf]

While not necessarily addressing the flaws in YOUR beer, when you refer to commercial hoppy beers, where you getting them from? Also from overseas? You mentioned Sierra Nevada beer, so I'm assuming so. There's some pretty big character changes during shipment. And beers from Europe that we get in the US are often unlike the way they are in Europe, most of which is a result of shipping damage. They get a particular sweet malty oxidized character that's very tough to replicate. And hops fade a lot. And the same goes for American beers shipped to the UK (and presumably the rest of Europe). A friend in England has described how the various Stone IPAs taste to him, and they're much different than here.

So it's quite possible that your excessive bitterness is accurate for a fresh hop-forward American IPA, however, it isn't what you taste in them because by the time you're tasting them the bitterness has dropped out a bit.

 

[The_Glue]

Ok so let's design a recipe here.
I am shooting for 2.5 gallons.
I'll use that soft water i mentioned, 60 minute mash around 154F.

2.5gal/10l

OG: 1.060
IBU: 40
Efficiency: 75-80%
60min boil

90% Maris
5% C60
5% Cara-Pils

16g Warrior @ 30min (according to a calc this will give me 40 ibus)
50g Nelson Sauvin@ whirlpool for 20 mins
50g Nelson Sauvin@ dryhop

edit: let's keep it more american for the sake of comparison, i'll probably get Centennial (i like its aroma) or something like that instead of NZ hops

1 packet of US05 (is this really too much? according to some calcs it is might be not even enough)

Is this generally fits the suggestions in the topic?

 

[The_Glue]

While not necessarily addressing the flaws in YOUR beer, when you refer to commercial hoppy beers, where you getting them from? Also from overseas? You mentioned Sierra Nevada beer, so I'm assuming so. There's some pretty big character changes during shipment. And beers from Europe that we get in the US are often unlike the way they are in Europe, most of which is a result of shipping damage. They get a particular sweet malty oxidized character that's very tough to replicate. And hops fade a lot. And the same goes for American beers shipped to the UK (and presumably the rest of Europe). A friend in England has described how the various Stone IPAs taste to him, and they're much different than here.

So it's quite possible that your excessive bitterness is accurate for a fresh hop-forward American IPA, however, it isn't what you taste in them because by the time you're tasting them the bitterness has dropped out a bit.

You hit the nail on the head, the american stuff i can get is generally raisin like, sweet, caramelly and malty which means it is past it's prime/oxidated but my older beers (3 months or older) while developed some of those characteristics they retain their "weirdness" too.
Also the rare occasions when i can get fresh and good tasting IPAs they are still different in the way i mentioned.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Ok so let's design a recipe here.
I am shooting for 2.5 gallons.
I'll use that soft water i mentioned, 60 minute mash around 154F.

2.5gal/10l

OG: 1.060
IBU: 40
Efficiency: 75-80%
60min boil

90% Maris
5% C60
5% Cara-Pils

16g Warrior @ 30min (according to a calc this will give me 40 ibus)
50g Nelson Sauvin@ whirlpool for 20 mins
50g Nelson Sauvin@ dryhop

edit: let's keep it more american for the sake of comparison, i'll probably get Centennial (i like its aroma) or something like that instead of NZ hops

1 packet of US05 (is this really too much? according to some calcs it is might be not even enough)

Is this generally fits the suggestions in the topic?

I might have skipped over it earlier in the thread, but I saw you can't buy RO or distilled water, but is buying your own RO filtration system an option? That sulfate level is very high, and that may give a very bitter impression no matter what you do. Edit: Looks like your sulfate is after added minerals, don't know what the base level is, but I never go above 200, and for my hoppy beers usually cap at 150-175ppm

Also keep in mind you'll get some slight isomerization (a few IBUs but probably not much more than that) from your whirlpool. You might find 40 IBUs isn't enough for your gravity, and might have to go up from there.

 

[leesmith]

Maine Brewing Company bottle conditions their hoppy ales.
I finally gave up trying to figure out how to bottle my IPAs without the flavor dropping out.
Kegging has improved them three fold.
I'd imagine if you can purge everything of O2 (my guess is that's how Maine Brewing bottles) you'll turn out a commercial quality beer. And one way to do that is to buy a co2 tank, regulator etc...at that point you may as well start kegging.

 

[joshesmusica]

i'm not so sure this issue is with the flavor dropping out. unless it's a combination that the flavor is dropping out and therefore the underlying off flavors that it was masking to begin with then became apparent. if it's just a flavor dropping out issue you could look into your caps. in the book, For the Love of Hops, he mentions that certain caps will let certain aromas escape over time. that time frame is most likely not two-three weeks, which is typical bottle conditioning time.

 

[unionrdr]

Ok so let's design a recipe here.
I am shooting for 2.5 gallons.
I'll use that soft water i mentioned, 60 minute mash around 154F.

2.5gal/10l

OG: 1.060
IBU: 40
Efficiency: 75-80%
60min boil

90% Maris
5% C60
5% Cara-Pils

16g Warrior @ 30min (according to a calc this will give me 40 ibus)
50g Nelson Sauvin@ whirlpool for 20 mins
50g Nelson Sauvin@ dryhop

edit: let's keep it more american for the sake of comparison, i'll probably get Centennial (i like its aroma) or something like that instead of NZ hops

1 packet of US05 (is this really too much? according to some calcs it is might be not even enough)

Is this generally fits the suggestions in the topic?

With American hops, you'll get mostly citrus, herbal, earthy sort of flavors. Some combinations have given tropical flavors. But none like NZ hops do. They're very unique.

 

[The_Glue]

Btw i eneterd one of my beers to a competition, while the experience of our judges is nowhere near a proper BJCP judge in the US, here are the comments i got back from three judges, this was for that beer i bittered with 3 month old reused frozen dryhops:
I enetered it into a BJCP American IPA category.
I only list the negative things:

judge1: one of the most bitter beer in the competition
judge2: sadly it is infected, it could have been a really good beer
judge3: too bitter