Is 209°F Enough for an AG Boil?

[PhilosophicAle]

Hi all,

I've recently finished building and acquiring all my equipment to start All Grain brewing. I've done 7 extract batches and want to move on.

I was testing my boil temp and time for 6.5 gallons of water to help efficiently allocate time for my first AG brew day. I was able to get a bubbling with some more intense bubbles around the edge at 209°F, but I couldn't get past that. I may be able to get it a degree higher with the lid partially on?

I had my kettle over two burners on my gas stove. I have a propane burner, but I live on the 3rd floor with no outdoor balcony, so that's not really doable right now. I would also like to avoid doing split boils if possible..

So, is this temperature sufficient? Will I get enough hop utilization and burn off DMS, etc?

Cheers!

Matthew

 

[iijakii]

Temp doesn't matter. Depending on your altitude you can be boiling at 209, above 212, etc. When you say " bubbling with some more intense bubbles around the edge" I think of a simmer, not a boil. If that's the case that won't work. Try 6gals instead of 6.5. No reason you can't make slightly smaller batches.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I live at 7800 feet above sea level and water boils at around 198°F. That means it can take longer for food to cook-even though boiling the temp is still the temp! I still don't typically extend my boils unless I'm using a high % of pilsner malt to drive off DMS. How vigorously the water is boiling is going to depend on the BTU's your heat source is capable of. What elevation do you live at? You should be able to get to a rolling boil, it just might take longer. The lid will definitely help as will a thicker pot with better heat transfer/ distribution and thermal mass.

 

[PhilosophicAle]

I'm at just below 800 feet..

Thanks for the responses!

EDIT: The "more intense bubbles" on the edge were more like a rolling boil, but confined to within like 2-3" of the edge.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Then you should be able to get it up to 211-212. Boiling point drops something like 2° every 1000'. You might need to try boiling less volume with the stove you are using. Can you straddle two burners?

 

[brewkinger]

Sounds like he already is straddling 2 burners.

My advice: smaller pre boil volume as mentioned earlier.

You may want to cover it to get it to boil, but you def DO NOT want to leave the lid on during the boil as there are DMS precursors that need to be boiled off. Otherwise your beer will have a canned corn taste.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Sounds like he already is straddling 2 burners.

My advice: smaller pre boil volume as mentioned earlier.

You may want to cover it to get it to boil, but you def DO NOT want to leave the lid on during the boil as there are DMS precursors that need to be boiled off. Otherwise your beer will have a canned corn taste.

Missed the two burners in the OP & thank you for pointing out to take the lid OFF once he gets to a boil, I was not trying to imply that...good way to "get" to clean the whole damn stove!

 

[PRE66_6TART]

So whether it's boiling or not is more important than the temperature? I live a 8500 feet so my water boils at 196. I always wondered if it was the high temperature or the boil itself that was necessary.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

You could also look at partial insulation of the pot. This is trickier with a gas fired set-up (I know from experience). The upper half to third of the pot should be safe from direct fire for some foil bubble wrap type insulation.

You can also use a wok ring (or two) in place of your burner grates.

Finally, there is always the option of building a heat stick or buying a commercial equivalent.

Once a true rolling boil is initiated, it is much easier to maintain but getting there can be a challenge...ask anyone who has tried to bring 12 gallons of wort to boil with a 35K btu burner when it is 8 F outside!

 

[FRS]

You may want to cover it to get it to boil, but you def DO NOT want to leave the lid on during the boil as there are DMS precursors that need to be boiled off. Otherwise your beer will have a canned corn taste.

Without a vigorous boil he may also not drive off the DMS precursors. Back when I brewed on the stove I had to keep a lid on covering about 70% of the pot to maintain a healthy boil. I never made a corn beer, in fact I made a few 40 point beers. As long as a large amount of steam is escaping the pot you'll probably be OK.

Still, by pushing your equipment to the edge to make full batches are you making the best beer you can? Maybe 3 gallon batches are the way to go for now.

Have you considered making a heat stick?


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[gwapogorilla]

Matt, at your altitude, water will boil at 211*. You really need to have a boil going in order to insure a good hot break, or else the tannin flavor will come back to haunt you.

When I started, I tried the stove top method as well. I do full volume boils(as I hear it makes better tasting beer), so I never got up to the rolling boil that you need for hot break.
I then tried to do it on my old 15,000 BTU turkey fryer. Notice I said tried. I was outside in February trying to bring 7 gallons of wort to a boil on that thing. 2 hours later....a simmer.

So, I bought this...
http://www.walmart.com/ip/King-Kooker-12-Portable-Propane-Outdoor-Double-Jet-Cooker-Package/21012095
It's the cheapest I could find, and it works great! On these cold Iowa winter days, I can boil wort in 20 minutes. Excellent investment.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Temperature is not an indication of boil vigor due to variables and accuracy of measuring temps. Measure your amount of volume boiled off in one hour...I believe you want 10% minimum.

 

[fartinmartin]

Insulate the pot around and over, lid on till it boils, then lid off, but keep the outside insulated, as crude as you like, a few old towels with rope, string, belts, elastic whatever it will give you a few degrees.

 

[AnOldUR]

Temperature is not an indication of boil vigor due to variables and accuracy of measuring temps. Measure your amount of volume boiled off in one hour...

From what I understand, volatiles are carried off by steam. For your batch size, one gallon of boil-off per hour would the minimum I'd be happy with.

 

[PhilosophicAle]

Thank you for all of the replies. I just ran another test with a slightly lower volume (6.25 gal). I could easily get it to a vigorous rolling boil with the lid on, but once it's off I'm back to about 209° and a slight boil. Having the lid 75% off or all the way off doesn't really effect the boil. I boiled off about .7-.75 gal in a little over an hour.

As I said in the OP, I have a propane burner, but using it isn't really an option as I'm on the 3rd floor with no balcony. I may build a heat stick, I just didn't really feel like waiting longer and spending more money.

Here's a quick video of what I'm getting if anyone wants a reference: https://vine.co/v/hYi9TgUAnn3

Thanks for all the help..

Cheers!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Try the $25 dollars of insulation first...You are likely looking for less than a degree.

 

[carton132]

As a new indoor brewer I was disappointed to learn how little I could bring to a boil on my electric stove during some testing. I ended up having to settle for smaller batches for now. My first all grain brew was 3 gallons into the carboy and I was really, really happy with it. Sure, I do wish I had more of it, but what I was able to make I loved and I think it was the right decision. I second the suggestion to consider smaller batches. Maybe shoot for 4 gallons instead of 5?

 

[TANSTAAFB]

As a new indoor brewer I was disappointed to learn how little I could bring to a boil on my electric stove during some testing. I ended up having to settle for smaller batches for now. My first all grain brew was 3 gallons into the carboy and I was really, really happy with it. Sure, I do wish I had more of it, but what I was able to make I loved and I think it was the right decision. I second the suggestion to consider smaller batches. Maybe shoot for 4 gallons instead of 5?

Even though I have built a big brew stand with keggle and pump I happen to live in a VERY cold neck of the woods...try getting 8gal to boil in -20°! So I brew inside during winter where I can only boil about 4.5 gallons. I have no problem topping up in the carboy like back in my extract days and I think the beer is just as good as the brews that boil the full volume. Just have to up the hops a little to compensate for the lower utilization.

 

[ArcLight]

Just boil and cool some water, perhaps a gallon and keep it to the side. Then do your normal brewing process, but with one less gallon. If you stove gets to 209 with 6 gallons, it should be able to get a little higher with just 5.
Then after the boil, add the cooled pre-boiled water back in.

If holding back one gallon isn't enough, try 1.5 gallons, or even 2 gallons.

 

[gwapogorilla]

Thank you for all of the replies. I just ran another test with a slightly lower volume (6.25 gal). I could easily get it to a vigorous rolling boil with the lid on, but once it's off I'm back to about 209° and a slight boil. Having the lid 75% off or all the way off doesn't really effect the boil. I boiled off about .7-.75 gal in a little over an hour.

As I said in the OP, I have a propane burner, but using it isn't really an option as I'm on the 3rd floor with no balcony. I may build a heat stick, I just didn't really feel like waiting longer and spending more money.

Here's a quick video of what I'm getting if anyone wants a reference: https://vine.co/v/hYi9TgUAnn3

Thanks for all the help..

Cheers!

Yep, those were the numbers I had as well. You really don't want the lid on, even partially, when boiling your wort. The condensation will build up on the lid and drip back into your wort. This causes off flavors...like cooked cabbage.
Since your kinda stuck, I would recommend smaller batches...or moving.

 

[PhilosophicAle]

I know not to boil with the lid on because the DMS needs to boil off and the lid will just let it drop back in.

So it appears my options are: heatstick, insulate, or top it off after the boil. I don't really want to do any smaller batches then 5 gal..

How would I insulate this if that's what I chose to do, I don't want to risk starting a fire. Also, is setting a gallon of water aside and adding it back in going to cause any issues?

Thanks a lot guys!

 

[fartinmartin]

Insulation for a few degrees is easy and very lowcost.
Adding top up is done by thousands of hombrewers as standard practice.

 

[PhilosophicAle]

Well I know topping off is standard for extract, but that's a concentrated wort. I didn't know if it was a good idea for all-grain.

What's the best way to insulate?

 

[Onkel_Udo]

How would I insulate this if that's what I chose to do, I don't want to risk starting a fire.

The metal bubble wrap type insulation and metal duct tape (foil tape). Buy the smallest quantity of both you can.

Cut the insulation such that it will go to the top of pot but land about 4" short of the bottom. Do one wrap with the insulation to get your length. Cut three pieces that length (maybe a 1/2" longer for two). Use the foil tape to cover the joint overlapping onto the pot at the bottom at least an inch and the top enough to wrap around in to the pot. Repeat with the remaining two pieces staggering the joints. Wrap the joint at the bottom of the insulation all the way around with tape overlapping on to the pot...a little bit but enough that an errant flame does not get to the edges of the insulation..

Now, if you are really anal, you can trim back a half inch at the top of the insulation and full tape that joint. At the very least, cut off and remove the little bits of tape that overlap into the pot.

Total time should be about 20-30 minutes and cost is dependent on how small a quantity of insulation you buy.

 

[Bambooshoot]

+1 for heat stick. takes about 30 min at the hardware store, $30, and 30 min to build. useful for bringing up mash temps when you undershoot as well.

 

[fartinmartin]

Re topping off - a tin of extract and water is much the same as what we get after mashing a bucket load of malt, both are a watery very sweet pot full , I dont see the difference.

My fermentor, I wraped it with plastic food wrap, then sprayed it with expanding foam ( normaly used for cavity infill around windows and the like ) a knife down each side and I have two 3" thick half shells that fit perfect. The same will work for your boil pot, just trim the bottom up a bit.
A piece of string holds them on, so cleaning is easy.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Well I know topping off is standard for extract, but that's a concentrated wort. I didn't know if it was a good idea for all-grain.

Again, I do this all the time when it's cold out. I brew AG because I live 2.5 hrs from a HBS but I have a malting company in my back yard (Colorado Malting Co.) as well as local hop growers and it is more cost effective for me. I am essentially producing a concentrated wort that I dilute with the top up water to reach my desired OG. Is a full boil better? Probably, but the beer I produce with this method is really good beer, I can't tell the difference between the same recipe brewed on my stand and the one brewed in my kitchen, and I'm not going to brew outside when it's f'n freezing outside!

I also brew smaller beers with less hops when brewing inside to accommodate my equipment restraints--cream ale, pilsners, session pale ales, Belgian pale ales, brown ale, dry stout, etc. vs. my Cascadian dark, big Belgians, Baltic Porter, barleywine, etc. which are reserved for the big rig.

 

[bob1852]

Hop utilization is affected by a lower boiling temp. Brewers/breweries at high elevation often increase their bittering hop amounts by 10-15% to account for it.

 

[PhilosophicAle]

+1 for heat stick. takes about 30 min at the hardware store, $30, and 30 min to build. useful for bringing up mash temps when you undershoot as well.

Did you follow a tutorial?

 

[PhilosophicAle]

The metal bubble wrap type insulation and metal duct tape (foil tape). Buy the smallest quantity of both you can.

Cut the insulation such that it will go to the top of pot but land about 4" short of the bottom. Do one wrap with the insulation to get your length. Cut three pieces that length (maybe a 1/2" longer for two). Use the foil tape to cover the joint overlapping onto the pot at the bottom at least an inch and the top enough to wrap around in to the pot. Repeat with the remaining two pieces staggering the joints. Wrap the joint at the bottom of the insulation all the way around with tape overlapping on to the pot...a little bit but enough that an errant flame does not get to the edges of the insulation..

Now, if you are really anal, you can trim back a half inch at the top of the insulation and full tape that joint. At the very least, cut off and remove the little bits of tape that overlap into the pot.

Total time should be about 20-30 minutes and cost is dependent on how small a quantity of insulation you buy.

Thank you for this. I'm either going to do this or a heat stick.. seems like they will each cost a similar amount, but heat sticks look cooler and they don't attach to my kettle.

 

[djt17]

During the cold MN winters; I use a heat stick to assist my stove. It works great, I can get 7 gal of water from mash temp to vigorous boil in 20 min, then I turn the gas down a little. Plus; but not installing an element in my boil kettle, I can brew outside (when weather permits), with my turkey burner. By the way, prior to building my heat stick I tried the Reflectix insulation on the top half of my brew kettle and used my kitchen gas stove.. It melted most of the insulation!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Thank you for this. I'm either going to do this or a heat stick.. seems like they will each cost a similar amount, but heat sticks look cooler and they don't attach to my kettle.

The heat stick is a better all around solution but lots of folks are scared of building one. It does take longer to find the right parts requires a lot more attention to detail.

Even though suggested the insualtion, if the build does not intimidate you, do the heatstick.

 

[mabrungard]

As already mentioned, the temperature of the boil does affect hop isomerization. Assuming that the OP's wort is actually creating a rolling boil at 209F, it is accomplishing the major goals of driving off undesirable components from the wort, but the isomerization is reduced. I want to say that some of the hop bittering formulas do include an accounting for elevation or boiling temp.

If the wort is at a rolling boil, insulation won't do much good.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

As already mentioned, the temperature of the boil does affect hop isomerization. Assuming that the OP's wort is actually creating a rolling boil at 209F, it is accomplishing the major goals of driving off undesirable components from the wort, but the isomerization is reduced. I want to say that some of the hop bittering formulas do include an accounting for elevation or boiling temp.

If the wort is at a rolling boil, insulation won't do much good.

At 800' ASL he's not at a full boil at 209°...needs that 2-3 degrees, but I doubt the hop utilization or DMS is really much of a problem at a "light" boil. And Beersmith does adjust for boil temperature, just have to look up the temp water boils at your elevation.

 

[Bambooshoot]

Did you follow a tutorial?

yes, i used this one: http://www.3d0g.net/brewing/heatstick

i looked about about 10 sets of plans and this is the best (particularly the idea of using acetone to thin the jb-weld to pourable consistency and then pouring it down the tube). the parts are all very easy to find in the hardware store plumbing section, just bring a printout of the instructions with you to the store and it will all become obvious.

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

First of all, your temp most likely won't go any higher than that. If it's boiling, you're at boiling temp. You will NOT get the water to heat above boiling temp. (Although you may have another degree or so, so I could be wrong).

(Here's the physics, if you care) Energy in the form of heat will do 1 of 2 things (never both). 1) Raise temp or 2) phase change. So when it hits the boiling temp, it starts putting the energy into converting liquid to gas (steam). That's what a boil is. So steam can be over boiling temp, but water can't be. This is the same reason snow is (almost) always at 32 degrees. It can go lower, but not until it's entirely solid and there is no water present, which is rarely the case.

Just a side note there- just saying don't sweat the temp too much. It's more important to VISUALLY make sure you have a rolling boil. A heat stick or insulation should help with that.

 

[djt17]

yes, i used this one: http://www.3d0g.net/brewing/heatstick

i looked about about 10 sets of plans and this is the best (particularly the idea of using acetone to thin the jb-weld to pourable consistency and then pouring it down the tube). the parts are all very easy to find in the hardware store plumbing section, just bring a printout of the instructions with you to the store and it will all become obvious.

My first heat stick used the Acetone method; after 1 week I tried it but it kept tripping the GFCI. I tore it apart & noticed that the J-B had not fully cured. I then built 2 using this method: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-method-sealing-heatstick-220198/ Much happier.

 

[junior]

I use two pots and once volume is reduced I combine into one pot for the last 30 minutes.

 

[PhilosophicAle]

Hey guys, I know it's been awhile since I started this, but I just wanted to check in for those who helped me out.

I got my heat stick, and brewed my first all grain batch just now. The heat stick worked wonderfully, I was able to turn my burners down a lot and still have a full rolling boil. To anyone thinking of getting or building a heat stick, I definitely recommend it!

My first all grain day went off with out a hitch also.. got 5.5 gallons of Brown Ale getting ready to ferment, and I nailed my BG and OG on the head!

Thanks again for the help everyone,

Cheers!