Irish Ale No Start

[PtreeCreekBrew]

Hi all,

Long time lurker first time poster. I've gotten a lot of information off of these boards over the past couple of years but I'm completely stumped on this one and I'm hoping maybe someone has some insight.

I recently brewed a Dry Irish Stout and the beer failed to ferment. I pitched on brew day as usual, after 72 hrs I had nothing so I pitched an additional pack, and still had nothing. After 48 hours, I proofed up some Am Ale harvested from a previous batch and pitched that, too, and still nothing.

So, I decided to brew the beer again, since I was hoping to have it ready to keg by Thanksgiving, and I'm obviously down to the wire. Unfortunately, same result. I'm now 48 hours after pitching on the second batch, and still nothing.

The specifics:

Recipe:
6 lb English Brown Malt (NB's kit calls for Maris Otter, could it be that using specialty grain as a base threw off the whole thing? My mash's had appropriate gravity....)
2 lb flaked barley
1 lb roasted barley

1.5 oz EKG 60 min

Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast

OG: 1.033/1.035 (respective batches)

Additions: .5 tsp NaHCO3, .5 tsp gypsum, .5 tsp cal chloride (second batch only); White Labs yeast nutrient (second batch)

I thought maybe my basement got too chilly at the start of the first batch, so I brought the second one up to my office at a steady 75 degrees. Seal is good, sanitation was good (gravs have stayed the same, so there's NO activity, not even from infection).

Thoughts? Like I said, I'm stumped, so any leads would be great. Thanks!

 

[Revvy]

I recently brewed a Dry Irish Stout and the beer failed to ferment. I pitched on brew day as usual, after 72 hrs I had nothing so I pitched an additional pack, and still had nothing. After 48 hours, I proofed up some Am Ale harvested from a previous batch and pitched that, too, and still nothing.

When you use the term "nothing" what do you mean by that. Why are you using to determine whether you have fermentation or not?

Gravity reading? Airlock bubbling?

If it's anything other than taking a gravity reading, then you don't know if you have fermentation or not. Remember, an airlock is NOT a fermentation gauge, it's a vent to release excess co2. Not bubbling doesn't mean fermentation isn't happening, just that co2 is NOT going out of the airlock with enough strength to do anything. It doesn't MEAN anything.

The only gauge of fermentation that is accurate is a gravity reading.

Modern yeast rarely just doesn't not work these days. Fermentation happens about 99.9% of the time. What USUALLY happens is that brewers think an airlock is a magic fermentation gauge.

Fermentation is not always dynamic...just because you don't SEE anything happening doesn't mean that the yeast aren't happily chewing away at whatever fermentables are in there....the only way to know comes from gravity readings, and nothing else.

People who rack to a secondary too soon based on bubbling often get stuck fermentation, because they've taken the beer off the yeast while it was STILL FERMENTING.

It could just as easily be bubbling or stop bubbling for that matter, due to changes in barometric pressure, temperature, or whether or not the cat or vacuum cleaner bumped into it, as it could be to because it's still fermenting.

Activity, action, bubbles, even krausen can be affected by the envoironment just as much as it being caused by the yeast...so going by that is NOT reliable.

If you want to know what's going on with your beer, then take a gravity reading. The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Going by airlocks is the same thing. There's still things going on under the surface despite what an airlock is or isn't doing.

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

Sorry, should have been more clear. By nothing, I meant unchanged grav readings, no airlock activity, and no krausen observed.

I MAY be jumping to conclusions on the second batch, as I haven't taken a reading on it yet (like I said, only 48 hrs on that one) but I took numerous readings on the initial batch and, as of 48 hrs ago, it was still at its OG of 1.033.

To allay concerns, I have just taken a reading on the second batch, and note that it is slightly lower than OG (now at 1.032), but still no krausen or anything.

I've brewed 2 other batches in the past 2 weeks (a pumpkin with 1057 and a nut brown with NeoBritannia) that both took off as expected.

 

[Revvy]

yea, the clearer you are the more able we are to help you. The majority of the time when people say activity, they mean airlock bubbling, and the first thing we have to do is to convince them to take a reading which most of the time shows them that they indeed have fermentation.

Krausens are like airlock bubbling, the can come and go quickly or form small or whatever based on so many variables as well. That's why gravity readings are the only reliable indicator of what's happening.

The fact that you have a slight drop in gravity, in the second one, means you do indeed have fermentation....that's all that matters.

 

[WhiskeySam]

OK, troubleshooting this one....

First of all, MO is not a specialty grain. It's a 2-row base grain. So that's not your problem.

What were your mash temperatures and is your thermometer accurately calibrated? When was the last time you ran a "check" with your thermometer? If it's off a few degrees, you might be doing nothing during your mash that appears to hit all the marks.

Did you cool your wort BEFORE pitching. I'm sorry for asking such a basic question, but if the yeast went into hot wort, you may have killed it.

What was the temperature differential between the yeast and the wort at pitch. if it was greater than 20 degrees, you may have shocked your yeast into dormancy. That doesn't account for the additional pitches though, so I'm doubting this is a thing.

With all the pitching you did, it really sounds like you have a problem with your mash technique. Sounds like you don't have a fermentable batch.

 

[WhiskeySam]

OHHH -- I see what you meant -- you used brown malt INSTEAD of MO. OK.

You may not have had enough diastatic power in the grain to properly convert.

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

Yeah, used brown malt instead of MO.

Mashed at 152 (actually dead spot on for the second one, about 153-ish for the first), therm calibrated about 3 weeks ago, and checked off of my alt therm.

Wort grav was spot on on both batches (whole wort at mid threes range, after being sparged down to a little under 1.010).

Cooled via immersion chiller to approx 75 deg, yeast proofed/pitched at 70-75 deg.

Yeah, a lot of pitching in the first batch (me going "wtfo?" since I'd had it at about 60-65 deg for the first day and a half or so), only one pitch on the second batch and I figured something was up.

Could be a mashing issue, but this is the first time I've run into this problem, and in between these I brewed a Nut Brown with same mashing and no issues (although, used actual MO instead of specialty...)

 

[WhiskeySam]

I'm thinking it's got to be the diastatic power of the grain being too low to convert. But I'm nowhere near the chemistry guy on this forum.

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

I'm tempted to do this one AGAIN, with MO this time, to see what happens...

I made a really good DIS a few years ago and haven't made it since...I guess that's karma. Got one shot at a good batch.

The only other thing that I can think of is that something got in my fermenter (both batches in the same fermenter), but I can't imagine what that would have been considering it's been rinsed, washed, and sanitized. Something that kills yeast, apparently.

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

Thanks, WhiskeySam, for pointing me in the right direction.

Appears brown malt has zero diastatic power. Now I feel like a dern fool.

Consider the mystery solved.

Again, thanks.

 

[helibrewer]

Brown malt has 0 diastatic power...there is nothing for the yeast to ferment.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks, WhiskeySam, for pointing me in the right direction.

Appears brown malt has zero diastatic power. Now I feel like a dern fool.

Consider the mystery solved.

Again, thanks.

Brown malt is nice malt in a porter. But I would NOT use it alone in a stout. Now you know why the recipe called for maris otter. :cross: Seriously, two pounds is great in a brown porter, but I wouldn't even think about it in a stout.

Unless you have a way to check mash pH, I wouldn't recommend using the baking soda and definitely leave out the gypsum in a stout!

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

Thanks, Yooper. I am monitoring pH in my mash. Gypsum was added due to our incredibly soft water here. We have almost no ions in our water and I wanted to boost my calcium without blowing my chlorides sky high with CaCl2, at the risk of having a little higher SO4.

Would have liked to use CaCO3, but didn't have any around.

Which actually brings up another question that probably deserves its own thread....

I DO have plenty of 100% MgCO3 (climber's chalk). Palmer suggests that Mg achieves the same as Ca, just about half strength. To boost my alkalinity, I needed more CO3, but didn't want to use a ton of baking soda (pH and Na+ concerns).

Has anyone used MgCO3? Thoughts? One of those things that "just shouldn't be in beer?"

 

[Yooper]

Thanks, Yooper. I am monitoring pH in my mash. Gypsum was added due to our incredibly soft water here. We have almost no ions in our water and I wanted to boost my calcium without blowing my chlorides sky high with CaCl2, at the risk of having a little higher SO4.

Would have liked to use CaCO3, but didn't have any around.

Which actually brings up another question that probably deserves its own thread....

I DO have plenty of 100% MgCO3 (climber's chalk). Palmer suggests that Mg achieves the same as Ca, just about half strength. To boost my alkalinity, I needed more CO3, but didn't want to use a ton of baking soda (pH and Na+ concerns).

Has anyone used MgCO3? Thoughts? One of those things that "just shouldn't be in beer?"

You never need chalk, ever. Take a wander over to the Brew Science forum on why chalk doesn't work in the mash, and what to do for a too-low mash pH (rare, and it's never happened to me) instead of chalk.

You don't want to increase magnesium, as the malt has plenty and it doesn't do good things for beer in more than very moderate amounts.

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

Again, thanks.

And again, I lacked clarity...

I was more concerned with my alkalinity and overall water hardness. Additions of chalks would therefore be an attempt to increase the HCO3ness of the water. Obviously, you can't simply add ions (wouldn't that be nice!) so I was thinking of using a combination of MgHCO3, NaHCO3, CaCl2, and CaHCO3.

I wasn't worried about a low pH mash--I was worried about it being too high if I used enough NaHCO3 to get my carbonate/alkalinity up where I wanted it.

I'll take a look at the chalk comments, though.

 

[Yooper]

Again, thanks.

And again, I lacked clarity...

I was more concerned with my alkalinity and overall water hardness. Additions of chalks would therefore be an attempt to increase the HCO3ness of the water. Obviously, you can't simply add ions (wouldn't that be nice!) so I was thinking of using a combination of MgHCO3, NaHCO3, CaCl2, and CaHCO3.

I wasn't worried about a low pH mash--I was worried about it being too high if I used enough NaHCO3 to get my carbonate/alkalinity up where I wanted it.

I'll take a look at the chalk comments, though.

The only time you'd ever consider adding alkalinity is if your mash pH is too low. That almost never happens, but with super soft water and tons of dark malts, it could in theory. 99.9% of the time there is never a need for adding a base, though. If you absolutely need to, lime is one way. Keep the HC03, MgHco3, and CaC03 FAR away from your mash!

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

I'm not trying to argue with you because it seems as though you're far better versed on salt additions than am I, but that seems to go against a lot of stuff I've read. Not just trying to throw random powders in my mashes just to see what they might do.

Could you point me in the direction of some good literature that will help me get a little more breadth and depth? (I'm sure there are a ton of threads, and I don't have a problem perusing them all, but if there's a single source or two, it's always easier...)

 

[Yooper]

Water is a tough subject, and I'm no hydrologist or chemist. A good place to start is in our forums own "Brew Science" area. There is a lot about water, and we have two well-known brewing water experts to help out. (Thanks for that!).

One site that helps a lot is this one: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ He also has a water spreadsheet to download that has great information and not just the calculations. It helps alot!

 

[Herky21]

I'm thinking it's got to be the diastatic power of the grain being too low to convert. But I'm nowhere near the chemistry guy on this forum.

I guess I find this confusing. My understanding was that diastatic power factored into the mash and explains why you put in X-amount of starches and get X-amount of sugars. If he is getting an OG of 1.033 doesn't that mean that some of the starches had to have turned into sugars?

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

Herky,

My English Brown Malt is essentially a crystal-type malt (for purposes of comparing to the article you cite).

Nothing in it capable of converting starches into fermentable simple sugar. Idiot oversight on my part. Essentially all I did was steep my grains (same as a really big batch of extract with specialty grains) for a long time. I pulled a lot of starches into my "wort" but didn't actually really convert (ie, therefore even mash) anything.

The gravity that I'm seeing gives the indicators of a complete mash, but I was so convinced (from past brews) of my mash process, that I didn't check for starch conversion (iodine). If I'd done that, I would have seen that something was wrong a lot earlier.

As such, I took my gravity readings at face value, when in fact they were raw starches and proteins in solution.

 

[Herky21]

Ah gotcha. I guess that explains why we have a hydrometer and a refractometer. I assumed the hydrometer reading had to mean sugar. I would've assumed diastatic power was nil when I read the recipe, but the hydrometer reading was confusing me.

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

Ok, so, I'm one of those guys that can't stand to throw beer away if it can be salvaged somehow...and...while these batches weren't exactly "beer," I figured they still had some usable starches.

So, I made a THIRD batch using only 12 lb Maris Otter, using the first two batches as the brewing water, figuring on the excessive enzymatic activity from the huge dose of MO to convert what was also already there. I might be completely wrong, but it seems to have worked. I ended up with a gravity of 1.085 (which, in the worst case, would be about 1.055, from the MO sugars alone). I'm guessing it worked, though, because it's fermenting explosively at 12 hrs in, lots more activity than I would expect from a 1.055 beer. Made a good starter on the yeast, gave it some nutrient, and a good hit of oxygen so hopefully it won't stall out at 1.030, but if it does, I'll know why (and expect a really bitter beer)!

While I'm aware that there are some unknowns here (like, what are the alphas going to do, what will the tanins be like, etc etc), I may come out with something that's at least consumable. I'll probably stick this thing in a glass secondary for a little bit to see if it'll mellow out.

 

[kpwright]

You are pitching your yeast at too high of temperatures. Read the pitch range on the packet. Most Ale yeasts ferment best around 62 degrees.

After you cool your wort to 75, let it sit for 24 hours to drop further to room temp, or even better put it in the basement. Don't rush to add the yeast.

 

[PtreeCreekBrew]

I pitch higher to keep within the temp range of my starter so that I don't shock the yeast. I proof in the mid 70s, pitch low-mid 70s, and then bring beer down to the appropriate fermentation temperature once I know I have a viable yeast community. All geared toward slowly bringing the temperature down to the requisite range without causing too much strain on the yeast, which also happens to be in the temp ranges of the yeast in question, and pretty much exactly in line with the "directions" on the packet (although, to be fair, I only use the actual packet about 30% of the time). The warmer temperatures early on aren't so high as to produce heavy ester or diacetyl flavors, while still giving the yeast the opportunity to adjust to the wort and then the final temp.

I know John Palmer recommends everything being in the "same" temperature range, but I've had good luck with this process (and definitely faster than waiting overnight to pitch!). I've also seen it used commercially, where expediency is crucial. Fast fermentations for the homebrewer aren't a myth--I've had complete fermentations in 4-5 days (yes, validated by steady gravity).