IPA too smooth/creamy

[jsvarney5]

Hi all,

I know this may not sound like a "problem" per se, but in the process of really trying to fine tune my IPA's I am turning here for help. Im making some really tasty IPA's with great flavor and aroma that I'm happy with. But when I drink them next to commercial examples, they just dont stack up because im not getting that crisp, dry bite similar to the IPA's I enjoy.

For malts, they have been relatively simple reciped. Mostly 2-row with some munich and small amounts of crystal. Sometimes i add a little carapils for body, sometimes I dont. So no oats or rye or anything that you'd associate with that kind of texture.

My next place to go was the water. And this probably is the culprit somewhere I'm guessing. I've been using Bru'n water for quite awhile. Usually hit mash pH and adjust if I dont. I start with distilled and build up from there. In my most recent IPA, i added salts to build the following profile: Ca:110 Mg:18 Na:17 Cl:50 SO4:350 HCO3: 0. Thinking high sulfates would accentuate bitterness and dry finish.

This recent IPA finished at 1.015 (from 1.072). So maybe a little higher than I'd like but i dont know if it's high enough to say that's what's causing the smooth, almost creamy like finish. I imagine it has to be associated with the soft water and something I'm doing wrong there but I'm open to all suggestions. Thanks!

 

[schematix]

Can you post a recipe that you've experienced this with?

First thought was your sulfates being low, but looks like you've done something about that. Second thought is your hopping schedule.

 

[sabotenfighter]

Mash really low
Add table sugar toward the end of the boil in lieu of more base malt
Pitch a lot of yeast
Ferment a little warm

Lotta ways you could go with this. Your FG seems a little too high if you want a dry bitter finish. Also what is your hopping schedule like?

 

[jsvarney5]

Can you post a recipe that you've experienced this with?

First thought was your sulfates being low, but looks like you've done something about that. Second thought is your hopping schedule.

Most recent IPA recipe:

77% 2 Row
12% Munich 10
5% Carapils
1.5% carastan
4.5% table sugar
Added some DME bc off a little on gravity

Hops: 0.6oz warrior @60; 1.5 oz combined of cascade and centennial @ 30 then almost 4 oz total of those two again in the whirlpool.

Mash really low
Add table sugar toward the end of the boil in lieu of more base malt
Pitch a lot of yeast
Ferment a little warm

Lotta ways you could go with this. Your FG seems a little too high if you want a dry bitter finish. Also what is your hopping schedule like?

I used table sugar in the recipe above and I pitched a 2L starter that I made about 24 hours prior with fresh yeast ordered directly from white labs (WLP002). Attenuated really well for that strain but you're right, it may be that that's just too high a finishing gravity for what I want.

 

[Yooper]

Most recent IPA recipe:

77% 2 Row
12% Munich 10
5% Carapils
1.5% carastan
4.5% table sugar
Added some DME bc off a little on gravity

Hops: 0.6oz warrior @60; 1.5 oz combined of cascade and centennial @ 30 then almost 4 oz total of those two again in the whirlpool.




I used table sugar in the recipe above and I pitched a 2L starter that I made about 24 hours prior with fresh yeast ordered directly from white labs (WLP002). Attenuated really well for that strain but you're right, it may be that that's just too high a finishing gravity for what I want.

Munich is a great malt- big malt flavor there. If you are getting too much maltiness in your IPA, that is probably the cause. Carapils gives body and head retention. Carastan is also a crystal malt, and probably something you don't need.

Perhaps get rid of the carapils, and lower the munich (or get rid of it), and lose the carastan. Go with US two-row, and maybe a little victory or amber malt (8 ounces) for character and see if that is more to your liking- it is to mine.

 

[crusader1612]

Most recent IPA recipe:

77% 2 Row
12% Munich 10
5% Carapils
1.5% carastan
4.5% table sugar
Added some DME bc off a little on gravity

Hops: 0.6oz warrior @60; 1.5 oz combined of cascade and centennial @ 30 then almost 4 oz total of those two again in the whirlpool.


I used table sugar in the recipe above and I pitched a 2L starter that I made about 24 hours prior with fresh yeast ordered directly from white labs (WLP002). Attenuated really well for that strain but you're right, it may be that that's just too high a finishing gravity for what I want.

5% Carapils is too much for an IPA these days, especially if you like it dry.

If your finishing at 1.015, you either have too much specialty malts, or your temps aren't right.
and if your temps aren't right, and you dont have enough yeast, theres a good chance you'll get some diacetyl in there.
diacetyl, wont always manifest as a distinct buttery flavour, aloto fthe time, it will merely some through as a slick caramel type thing.
If your hop aroma is somewhat muted, I would suggest diacetyl is your problem.
do a diacetyl rest at a nice warm temp to make sure its done, and the yeast aren't being too lazy.

Modern day IPA's use little to no Crystal malts (carapils is considered a crystal malt)

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

WLP002

That's where I would lay some of the blame.

If you haven't tried different yeasts, it would be a good idea to. 002 is inclined to leave a beer creamier and fuller, and less attenuated. Attenuation is only one part of mouthfeel, though. There are other compounds the yeast create that also contribute to mouthfeel. Most of the sharp and crisp commercial IPAs use something like 001 (1056), 051 (1272), 090, or even dry yeast like us-05 or BRY-97. Basically a more neutral American Ale strain with little character of it's own to offer.

I think mainly the issue here is on the recipe side.

Grain selection is critical. It's best to abandon the "classic American IPA" recipe. Usually in a bone dry and bitter, modern American IPA, you're going to want to shoot for 4-5 SRM, and go with at least 85+% American Standard 2-Row, and very little color malts. I emphasize American 2-row, as this variety tends to have lots of enzyme for very high fermentability.

Crystal malts and carapils are the bane of a dry IPA, use them very sparingly, if at all. I like Yooper's suggestion to use a little bit of Victory or Amber instead. Those malts are really robust and flavorful, but don't end up too sweet or mouth-filling like a crystal or carapils will. I've had good success with using them in the amount she gave. A little definitely goes a long way.

Mashing time and temperature are important, too. For my system, 150F for 90 minutes gets me up in the 80+% attenuation range with the malts I mentioned above, regardless of yeast (so far). There can be a multitude of variables that influence fermentability, though, so my 150F might be the same as your 148F or even 146F. Don't be afraid to go a few degrees lower than you are now, and you might gain from adding some more time to your mash in order to get more fermentability.

The water looks good, sulfate seems a tiny bit high, but if the bittering isn't too harsh for you, then stick with what works. I don't think water is the problem here, and I wouldn't change it.

Good luck, and brew on!

 

[sabotenfighter]

Second all of above, especially choosing a more clean/dry yeast strain, but also, almost no point in doing a starter if you are only gonna let the yeast grow for 24 hours. Should give the starter at least 2-3 days to really make a difference, otherwise you're wasting DME more than helping, really.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

I like WLP002 in certain beers, but not IPA's typically. A good English character, but doesn't attenuate as much as some other strains, and might leave the beer a little maltier or sweeter than intended. I like some English character in some of my IPA's, and find WLP007 a good choice. Somewhat similar to 002 but will get better attenuation. Best of both worlds for me - gets my numbers down low, but still has a little interesting character. I like it at 64 for first several days or even a week, then ramp up a bit to around 70 thereafter, which for me keeps it pretty clean and subdues a lot (but not all) of the English character, if that's what you're going for. But perhaps you should try a clean, high attenuating american strain for a really clean flavor.

 

[jsvarney5]

Munich is a great malt- big malt flavor there. If you are getting too much maltiness in your IPA, that is probably the cause. Carapils gives body and head retention. Carastan is also a crystal malt, and probably something you don't need.

Perhaps get rid of the carapils, and lower the munich (or get rid of it), and lose the carastan. Go with US two-row, and maybe a little victory or amber malt (8 ounces) for character and see if that is more to your liking- it is to mine.

Thanks Yooper. Yes, that's a good point. Maybe it is the malts I'm using. This will be the first place I look to adjust with the pale ale I'm brewing next weekend.

 

[jsvarney5]

5% Carapils is too much for an IPA these days, especially if you like it dry.

If your finishing at 1.015, you either have too much specialty malts, or your temps aren't right.
and if your temps aren't right, and you dont have enough yeast, theres a good chance you'll get some diacetyl in there.
diacetyl, wont always manifest as a distinct buttery flavour, aloto fthe time, it will merely some through as a slick caramel type thing.
If your hop aroma is somewhat muted, I would suggest diacetyl is your problem.
do a diacetyl rest at a nice warm temp to make sure its done, and the yeast aren't being too lazy.

Modern day IPA's use little to no Crystal malts (carapils is considered a crystal malt)

I think I added carapils and some specialty malts because I step mashed starting at 145 for 45 minutes and then upped to 155. So I was thinking I'd get a ton of fermentability out of the wort (which really I did because 002 doesnt typically attenuate that well) but that may be part of my problem too. I think its a good idea though to get rid of those specialty malts and try again.

 

[jsvarney5]

That's where I would lay some of the blame.

If you haven't tried different yeasts, it would be a good idea to. 002 is inclined to leave a beer creamier and fuller, and less attenuated. Attenuation is only one part of mouthfeel, though. There are other compounds the yeast create that also contribute to mouthfeel. Most of the sharp and crisp commercial IPAs use something like 001 (1056), 051 (1272), 090, or even dry yeast like us-05 or BRY-97. Basically a more neutral American Ale strain with little character of it's own to offer.

I think mainly the issue here is on the recipe side.

Grain selection is critical. It's best to abandon the "classic American IPA" recipe. Usually in a bone dry and bitter, modern American IPA, you're going to want to shoot for 4-5 SRM, and go with at least 85+% American Standard 2-Row, and very little color malts. I emphasize American 2-row, as this variety tends to have lots of enzyme for very high fermentability.

Crystal malts and carapils are the bane of a dry IPA, use them very sparingly, if at all. I like Yooper's suggestion to use a little bit of Victory or Amber instead. Those malts are really robust and flavorful, but don't end up too sweet or mouth-filling like a crystal or carapils will. I've had good success with using them in the amount she gave. A little definitely goes a long way.

Mashing time and temperature are important, too. For my system, 150F for 90 minutes gets me up in the 80+% attenuation range with the malts I mentioned above, regardless of yeast (so far). There can be a multitude of variables that influence fermentability, though, so my 150F might be the same as your 148F or even 146F. Don't be afraid to go a few degrees lower than you are now, and you might gain from adding some more time to your mash in order to get more fermentability.

The water looks good, sulfate seems a tiny bit high, but if the bittering isn't too harsh for you, then stick with what works. I don't think water is the problem here, and I wouldn't change it.

Good luck, and brew on!

Thanks for the detailed response. I have used lots of different strains but it has been awhile since I've used a cali strain on an IPA as odd as that may sound. I liked the idea of an english strain fermented low to give some additional complexity in flavors but you're right, that could certainly be the cause for not getting that dry bite like i would from the clean and more robust fermentation of a cali strain.

 

[jsvarney5]

Second all of above, especially choosing a more clean/dry yeast strain, but also, almost no point in doing a starter if you are only gonna let the yeast grow for 24 hours. Should give the starter at least 2-3 days to really make a difference, otherwise you're wasting DME more than helping, really.

I've had good success in the 18-24 hour range. On a stir plate the starter is usually at high krausen by then and has done all its cell divisions by that point. Shortly after that it starts floccing out, which would be fine if I was letting it settle to decant and pitch, but when I'm doing 2L starters I pitch the whole thing.

I've had good s

I like WLP002 in certain beers, but not IPA's typically. A good English character, but doesn't attenuate as much as some other strains, and might leave the beer a little maltier or sweeter than intended. I like some English character in some of my IPA's, and find WLP007 a good choice. Somewhat similar to 002 but will get better attenuation. Best of both worlds for me - gets my numbers down low, but still has a little interesting character. I like it at 64 for first several days or even a week, then ramp up a bit to around 70 thereafter, which for me keeps it pretty clean and subdues a lot (but not all) of the English character, if that's what you're going for. But perhaps you should try a clean, high attenuating american strain for a really clean flavor.

That sounds like a good idea. That's generally what I do with 002 but it sounds like 007 may get me more of what I'm looking for. I've never used that but I'll have to give it a whirl. Maybe with a change to the malts and the use of that strain, I can get closer to what I want without sacrificing the English strain to do so.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

I've had good success in the 18-24 hour range. On a stir plate the starter is usually at high krausen by then and has done all its cell divisions by that point. Shortly after that it starts floccing out, which would be fine if I was letting it settle to decant and pitch, but when I'm doing 2L starters I pitch the whole thing.

I've had good s


That sounds like a good idea. That's generally what I do with 002 but it sounds like 007 may get me more of what I'm looking for. I've never used that but I'll have to give it a whirl. Maybe with a change to the malts and the use of that strain, I can get closer to what I want without sacrificing the English strain to do so.

A good starter is recommended, but sounds like you've got that covered. Also, as others have noted, cut back on the crystal malts. I typically don't add more than .25 lbs for a 5.5 gallon batch, and very occasionally use 1/2 lb, for most stuff I brew for my tastes. Good luck with future experimentation!

 

[Queequeg]

How do you carbonate and to what level?

 

[Chris_Primavera]

(WLP002). Attenuated really well for that strain but you're right, it may be that that's just too high a finishing gravity for what I want.

I struggled with WLP002 for months - It's really good yeast for a malt-forward style but didn't finish off my IPAs well. It makes a pretty good Stone IPA clone but I wanted something dryer and lighter.

I switched to WY1272 American Ale II and got exactly what I was looking for.

Good luck!

 

[jsvarney5]

How do you carbonate and to what level?

I keg some and bottle some depending on whats available and what I feel like using. Carbonation is typically fine and if not, can be adjusted (in the keg).

I struggled with WLP002 for months - It's really good yeast for a malt-forward style but didn't finish off my IPAs well. It makes a pretty good Stone IPA clone but I wanted something dryer and lighter.

I switched to WY1272 American Ale II and got exactly what I was looking for.

Good luck!

Thanks Chris. Yea that's what it's starting to sound like. Malt bill and yeast selection. Im trying a split batch pale ale next week. Half with Brett and the other half I think I'm going to just use a Cali strain and a malt bill without crystal and see what I get from that portion.

 

[303Dan]

I keg some and bottle some depending on whats available and what I feel like using. Carbonation is typically fine and if not, can be adjusted (in the keg).

Is this beer bottled or kegged? Is it possible it's a little undercarbed? Or if it's in the keg, is it possible you're getting co2 coming out of solution either by too fast a pour, warm lines, imbalance between your carb level in the keg and your serving pressure creating bubbles in the lines? I ask because I feel like that situation can definitely come off as "creamy" and take away from the bite you'd normally associate with a pale or IPA.

 

[Queequeg]

^^ yes I agree with above, if pour speed is too fast it definitely can be creamy.

 

[Callacave]

With the large amount of hops in the whirlpool and a finishing gravity of 1.015, you're definitely into the NEIPA territory, which I love. I hate a dry IPA, but I understand what you're shooting for.

Don't underestimated the amount of hop oils/polyphenols that can contribute to the mouthfeel of your beer, as well a slightly higher FG.

 

[jsvarney5]

Is this beer bottled or kegged? Is it possible it's a little undercarbed? Or if it's in the keg, is it possible you're getting co2 coming out of solution either by too fast a pour, warm lines, imbalance between your carb level in the keg and your serving pressure creating bubbles in the lines? I ask because I feel like that situation can definitely come off as "creamy" and take away from the bite you'd normally associate with a pale or IPA.

^^ yes I agree with above, if pour speed is too fast it definitely can be creamy.

I did a rye ipa recently where I bottle conditioned a gallon and kegged 4 gallons. Ive actually done a few beers like that. Carbonation always seems fine.

 

[Queequeg]

What is your fermentation profile for WLP002? In terms of temperature and times.

 

[jsvarney5]

What is your fermentation profile for WLP002? In terms of temperature and times.

Chilled to about 63, pitched yeast and let rise to about 66 where it hung out for the first few days while it fermented. Let free rise from there to about 72 to finish out.

Dry hopped on day 6 for 3-4 days at that temp, pulled those out and dosed with second dry hop on day 10 for another few days. Pulled those out, crashed for a few days and racked into purged keg.

 

[Queequeg]

What was your pitch rate?